quick oil zinc information to pass along

Started by 94touring, March 01, 2021, 04:06:18 PM

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94touring

Since I'm rotting away in a hotel this week and the research bug is in me, here is a breakdown on zinc for 3 different popular oils.  We need roughly 1200ppm in our oil.  I typically add a zinc additive to whatever oil I'm using, but I've yet to be able to figure out how much that actually adds.  Figured I'd look into high zinc oils and take all the guesswork out, and maybe even save some money.

Valvoline VR1 Racing oil:  1400ppm
Brad Penn:  1500ppm
Lucas hot rod and classic car:  2100ppm


I went with the Lucas and not just cause it has the most zinc but the price was a few dimes less per quart.  Speedwaymotors.com has some bundle deals in 5 quart jugs in 10w30 as well, which I need for the bus, and the 20w50 for the mini was also priced good.  They also have $10 coupons they email out left and right along with free shipping which makes it all more worth while.  I now have 30 quarts of high zinc oil that should hopefully last awhile.   

BruceK

I see that Valvoline VR1 20W-50 conventional oil is on offer at Amazon for $6.44 per quart when buying 6 qts. at a time.

What was your cost for the Lucas oil? 

1988 Austin Mini
2002 MINI Cooper S
1992 Toyota LiteAce (JDM)
1997 Jeep Wrangler Sahara

cstudep

Wow that is a pretty big jump up in zinc.

I used to spend a lot of time on the Bobistheoilguy forums when I had my turbo subbie. One thing that seems to be common amongst the group there is their dislike for Lucas oil for whatever that is worth.

I am by no means an expert and it's been a while since I did the research on it, but it seems like the consensus was anything over 1000ppm is preferred in general, 1200-1500  (the higher the better) on a new motor and anything over about 1500ppm really isn't necessary. At the time the Valvoline VR1 racing oil was all that was readily available around here so that is what I have always used.

May have to do some more reading up on the Lucas stuff now, I had never heard of this specific version prior.

94touring

#3
Bruce I got 10w30 for $5.67 a quart and the 20w50 for $6.13. 

Those guy on the oil site have any specific reasons why they disliked Lucas?

94touring

Poked around over there.  One guy seems pretty certain 2100ppm is corrosive to engines.  Not sure how true that actually is.

cstudep

If I remember correctly, and this was a few years ago now, the lucas oils that were sent off for testing had some pretty poor results in regards to shear stability and viscosity consistency. 2 things you really don't want in an oil. Of course that does not mean that all lucas oils are suspect, but they just seemed to have a bad rap in general. Having never really had access to Lucas oil, I never really worried about it much.

Yeah I have no idea if you can get too much zinc, I suppose at some point it's not really doing any more good, whether than translates into actually doing harm would be interesting to find out for sure.

94touring

#6
I found a lab test list on a ton of oils.  The Lucas hot rod and classic oil was down the list in the "moderate" protection zone, as was Brad Penn.   Valvoline vr1 was in the "excellent" zone.  The ones above and beyond excellent were synthetic oils.  I suppose if I needed to dilute my zddp down I could mix it with something else perhaps.  A synthetic maybe, I dunno, more research.

Edit:  It's fine to mix oils apparently, synthetics and conventional that is.  That's all a blend is afterall.  Tippy top of the oil list coming in at #4 was Mobil 1 full advance synthetic 10w30 at 900ppm with 15w50 having 1300ppm.  At 115,635 PSI on the wear scale it's some 50,000psi higher than that of Lucas and Brad Penn.  Valvoline Vr1 comes in at 103,505 PSI.

A couple name brands at the very bottom of the list in the "undesirable" category:

0W Mobil 1 Racing Oil – 55,080 PSI
Zinc: 1952 ppm Phos: 1671 ppm Moly: 1743 ppm
Onset of thermal breakdown – 210*F, which was confirmed by repeated tests. This oil is STARTING TO FAIL even before getting hot enough to quickly boil off normal water condensation. And this is on top of its very poor wear protection capability.

10W40 Brad Penn, Penn Grade 1, Partial Synthetic – 57,864 PSI.

However the semi synthetic came in the moderate range:

10W30 Brad Penn, Penn Grade 1 semi-synthetic = 71,206 psi
zinc = 1557 ppm
phos = 1651 ppm
moly = 3 ppm

94touring

#7
Also noteworthy with some more digging around various test pages.

"ZDDPlus" added to Royal Purple 20W50, API SN, synthetic = 63,595 psi
zinc = 2436 ppm (up 1848 ppm)
phos = 2053 ppm (up 1356 ppm)
moly = 2 ppm (up 2 ppm)

The psi value here is 24% LOWER than this oil had BEFORE the ZDDPlus was added to it. Oil companies always say to NEVER add anything to their oils, because adding anything will upset the carefully balanced additive package, and ruin the oil's chemical composition. And that is precisely what we see here. Adding ZDDPlus SIGNIFICANTLY REDUCED this oil's wear prevention capability. Just the opposite of what was promised. Buyer beware.

ZDDPlus" added to O'Reilly (house brand) 5W30, API SN, conventional = 56,728 psi
zinc = 2711 ppm (up 1848 ppm)
phos = 2172 ppm (up 1356 ppm)
moly = 2 ppm (up 2 ppm)

The psi value here is a whopping 38% LOWER than this oil had BEFORE the ZDDPlus

"Edelbrock Zinc Additive" added to Lucas 5W30, API SN, conventional = 51,545 psi
zinc = 1565 ppm (up 573 ppm)
phos = 1277 ppm (up 517 ppm)
moly = 15 ppm (up 15 ppm)

The psi value here is a "breath taking" 44% LOWER than this oil had BEFORE the Edelbrock Zinc

cstudep

Good information there Dan! I have always been additive averse when it comes to oil. I figure if you just use a decent oil to begin with and change it out at a reasonable interval you will be fine.

94touring

There were some oils that increased in PSI value with additives but just as many that were significantly lower.  Basically it's a big gamble putting in an additive that could potentially adversely effect the oils chemical structure. 

I think in conclusion I came up with the two best oils for our minis being either the VR1 in conventional or that Mobile 1 synthetic in 15w50. 

BruceK

Quote from: 94touring on March 01, 2021, 09:39:36 PM
Also noteworthy with some more digging around various test pages.

"ZDDPlus" added to Royal Purple 20W50, API SN, synthetic = 63,595 psi
zinc = 2436 ppm (up 1848 ppm)
phos = 2053 ppm (up 1356 ppm)
moly = 2 ppm (up 2 ppm)

The psi value here is 24% LOWER than this oil had BEFORE the ZDDPlus was added to it. Oil companies always say to NEVER add anything to their oils, because adding anything will upset the carefully balanced additive package, and ruin the oil's chemical composition. And that is precisely what we see here. Adding ZDDPlus SIGNIFICANTLY REDUCED this oil's wear prevention capability. Just the opposite of what was promised. Buyer beware.

ZDDPlus" added to O'Reilly (house brand) 5W30, API SN, conventional = 56,728 psi
zinc = 2711 ppm (up 1848 ppm)
phos = 2172 ppm (up 1356 ppm)
moly = 2 ppm (up 2 ppm)

The psi value here is a whopping 38% LOWER than this oil had BEFORE the ZDDPlus

"Edelbrock Zinc Additive" added to Lucas 5W30, API SN, conventional = 51,545 psi
zinc = 1565 ppm (up 573 ppm)
phos = 1277 ppm (up 517 ppm)
moly = 15 ppm (up 15 ppm)

The psi value here is a "breath taking" 44% LOWER than this oil had BEFORE the Edelbrock Zinc


Very interesting.  With the negative effects of the zinc additives it kind of makes sense why the manufacturers make no claims on what the additives actually do.   The marketing is all on PPM of the zinc - not what it actually does to the oil it is added to.
1988 Austin Mini
2002 MINI Cooper S
1992 Toyota LiteAce (JDM)
1997 Jeep Wrangler Sahara

94touring

#11
QuoteVery interesting.  With the negative effects of the zinc additives it kind of makes sense why the manufacturers make no claims on what the additives actually do.   The marketing is all on PPM of the zinc - not what it actually does to the oil it is added to.

Yeah and I have 2 bottles of it on the shelf I get to toss in the trash now!  I was just browsing ebay to buy some zinc additive in bulk to just have on hand.  Glad I didn't do that.  I probably wouldn't have pulled the plug on the Lucas hot rod oil had I seen these lab results, and it does seem to be that the race oils with very high zinc are "race only", so I'll just dilute it down and with something with a higher PSI rating.  Lots of debate online on mixing oils and I'm not sure you'd never get a solid answer.  Oil companies won't advice it because of lawyers on one hand but on the other there is everyone and their brother mixing oils without any engine failures.  General safe consensus was mix same brand oils.  Every car I own right now is due for an oil change so I'll go through 30 quarts in no time.   

TDA

Menards carries Valvoline VR-1 Racing 20-50 for $4.99/qt.  They often run a 55 cent per quart rebate on it as well.  My brother has used VR-1 in his vintage race mini for years without any problems (or additives).  He has been using the same cam since 1989.  APT cam, Isky valve springs and I think Isky chilled iron lifters.

https://www.menards.com/main/tools-hardware/automotive-marine-hardware/automotive-marine-oil-oil-filters-accessories/valvoline-reg-vr1-racing-motor-oil-1-quart/822350/tools-hardware/automotive-marine-hardware/automotive-marine-oil-oil-filters-accessories/valvoline-reg-vr1-racing-motor-oil-1-quart/822347/p-1447439522826.htm

94touring

Dang too bad I don't have a Menards around Tulsa. 

cstudep

Yeah it's amazing what you can find at Menards. They have a lot of odd items for a home improvement store.

MiniDave

They have them here in KC, when you come up you can pick up a few cases
Complete failure at retirement

1989 Cooper Racing Green
2009 Clubman S
2014 Audi Allroad

Richard1

The study being quoted above has some problems, as that is not the only test you need for motor oils. We have a lot more to worry about. And that test only ran new oil, and was several years ago.

On a positive note, the Lucas WILL damage your cam over time. Anything over 1800 ppm of phosphorous will gall the cam, per SAE. Pengrade and VR1 are fine, but there are a lot more choices, as anything from the diesel CI
-4 category is great in manual gearbox Mini's, while Automatic Minis need MA2 motorcycle 10W-40 oil.

The other challenge for the old timers is to accept 10W-40 as a better option in powertrains that are in good condition. If you haven't read it, I suggest this download: https://www.widman.biz/mini_pics/classic-mini-oil.pdf

94touring

Saw this in Wal Mart today for $22.50.  I'll have to do some research to see how much zinc and what the ratings are.

94touring

Found the tech sheet and it has 1400ppm zinc which is right where you want it. Apparently only sold in wally world.

cstudep

Will have to keep an eye out for it. I have never seen it before.

Richard1

I have recently added that to my paper on the selection of the right oil for our Minis (along with a few others sold for classics cars and Minis: https://www.widman.biz/mini_pics/classic-mini-oil.pdf

94touring

Quote from: Richard1 on April 26, 2022, 05:19:06 AM
I have recently added that to my paper on the selection of the right oil for our Minis (along with a few others sold for classics cars and Minis: https://www.widman.biz/mini_pics/classic-mini-oil.pdf

I'll have to dig into that once I have a moment. Looks like a big read.  I'm still using VR1 20w50 and Mobile 1 synthetic in 15w50 in my minis.  My VW motors get Vr1 10w30 that require high zinc.  Might toss this classic castrol on the list for when I don't want to run full synthetic in the minis.

Richard1

Quote from: 94touring on April 26, 2022, 05:35:39 AM
Quote from: Richard1 on April 26, 2022, 05:19:06 AM
I have recently added that to my paper on the selection of the right oil for our Minis (along with a few others sold for classics cars and Minis: https://www.widman.biz/mini_pics/classic-mini-oil.pdf

I'll have to dig into that once I have a moment. Looks like a big read.  I'm still using VR1 20w50 and Mobile 1 synthetic in 15w50 in my minis.  My VW motors get Vr1 10w30 that require high zinc.  Might toss this classic castrol on the list for when I don't want to run full synthetic in the minis.

You might want to download it again, as, since you mentioned it, I added the Mobil 1 product to the table.

jedduh01

Great to see that Classic GTX...
  Vr1 is great in my eyes... but good to have another choice.

Castrol Classic was listed available in my local Walmart + of course its on Amazon 19-20$ 5 Quarts.

cstudep

I generally change the oil in mine because of time rather than miles anyway so it has always seemed a bit wasteful to spend the extra money on synthetic oil that will just be swapped out long before the benefits of using it are seen, which is generally a longer change interval.

Having a much cheaper conventional oil with the proper level of Zinc seems like better deal to me at least. I'll be changing it long before I hit any sort of mileage change requirement.