Since I'm rotting away in a hotel this week and the research bug is in me, here is a breakdown on zinc for 3 different popular oils. We need roughly 1200ppm in our oil. I typically add a zinc additive to whatever oil I'm using, but I've yet to be able to figure out how much that actually adds. Figured I'd look into high zinc oils and take all the guesswork out, and maybe even save some money.
Valvoline VR1 Racing oil: 1400ppm
Brad Penn: 1500ppm
Lucas hot rod and classic car: 2100ppm
I went with the Lucas and not just cause it has the most zinc but the price was a few dimes less per quart. Speedwaymotors.com has some bundle deals in 5 quart jugs in 10w30 as well, which I need for the bus, and the 20w50 for the mini was also priced good. They also have $10 coupons they email out left and right along with free shipping which makes it all more worth while. I now have 30 quarts of high zinc oil that should hopefully last awhile.
I see that Valvoline VR1 20W-50 conventional oil is on offer at Amazon for $6.44 per quart when buying 6 qts. at a time.
What was your cost for the Lucas oil?
Wow that is a pretty big jump up in zinc.
I used to spend a lot of time on the Bobistheoilguy forums when I had my turbo subbie. One thing that seems to be common amongst the group there is their dislike for Lucas oil for whatever that is worth.
I am by no means an expert and it's been a while since I did the research on it, but it seems like the consensus was anything over 1000ppm is preferred in general, 1200-1500 (the higher the better) on a new motor and anything over about 1500ppm really isn't necessary. At the time the Valvoline VR1 racing oil was all that was readily available around here so that is what I have always used.
May have to do some more reading up on the Lucas stuff now, I had never heard of this specific version prior.
Bruce I got 10w30 for $5.67 a quart and the 20w50 for $6.13.
Those guy on the oil site have any specific reasons why they disliked Lucas?
Poked around over there. One guy seems pretty certain 2100ppm is corrosive to engines. Not sure how true that actually is.
If I remember correctly, and this was a few years ago now, the lucas oils that were sent off for testing had some pretty poor results in regards to shear stability and viscosity consistency. 2 things you really don't want in an oil. Of course that does not mean that all lucas oils are suspect, but they just seemed to have a bad rap in general. Having never really had access to Lucas oil, I never really worried about it much.
Yeah I have no idea if you can get too much zinc, I suppose at some point it's not really doing any more good, whether than translates into actually doing harm would be interesting to find out for sure.
I found a lab test list on a ton of oils. The Lucas hot rod and classic oil was down the list in the "moderate" protection zone, as was Brad Penn. Valvoline vr1 was in the "excellent" zone. The ones above and beyond excellent were synthetic oils. I suppose if I needed to dilute my zddp down I could mix it with something else perhaps. A synthetic maybe, I dunno, more research.
Edit: It's fine to mix oils apparently, synthetics and conventional that is. That's all a blend is afterall. Tippy top of the oil list coming in at #4 was Mobil 1 full advance synthetic 10w30 at 900ppm with 15w50 having 1300ppm. At 115,635 PSI on the wear scale it's some 50,000psi higher than that of Lucas and Brad Penn. Valvoline Vr1 comes in at 103,505 PSI.
A couple name brands at the very bottom of the list in the "undesirable" category:
0W Mobil 1 Racing Oil – 55,080 PSI
Zinc: 1952 ppm Phos: 1671 ppm Moly: 1743 ppm
Onset of thermal breakdown – 210*F, which was confirmed by repeated tests. This oil is STARTING TO FAIL even before getting hot enough to quickly boil off normal water condensation. And this is on top of its very poor wear protection capability.
10W40 Brad Penn, Penn Grade 1, Partial Synthetic – 57,864 PSI.
However the semi synthetic came in the moderate range:
10W30 Brad Penn, Penn Grade 1 semi-synthetic = 71,206 psi
zinc = 1557 ppm
phos = 1651 ppm
moly = 3 ppm
Also noteworthy with some more digging around various test pages.
"ZDDPlus" added to Royal Purple 20W50, API SN, synthetic = 63,595 psi
zinc = 2436 ppm (up 1848 ppm)
phos = 2053 ppm (up 1356 ppm)
moly = 2 ppm (up 2 ppm)
The psi value here is 24% LOWER than this oil had BEFORE the ZDDPlus was added to it. Oil companies always say to NEVER add anything to their oils, because adding anything will upset the carefully balanced additive package, and ruin the oil's chemical composition. And that is precisely what we see here. Adding ZDDPlus SIGNIFICANTLY REDUCED this oil's wear prevention capability. Just the opposite of what was promised. Buyer beware.
ZDDPlus" added to O'Reilly (house brand) 5W30, API SN, conventional = 56,728 psi
zinc = 2711 ppm (up 1848 ppm)
phos = 2172 ppm (up 1356 ppm)
moly = 2 ppm (up 2 ppm)
The psi value here is a whopping 38% LOWER than this oil had BEFORE the ZDDPlus
"Edelbrock Zinc Additive" added to Lucas 5W30, API SN, conventional = 51,545 psi
zinc = 1565 ppm (up 573 ppm)
phos = 1277 ppm (up 517 ppm)
moly = 15 ppm (up 15 ppm)
The psi value here is a "breath taking" 44% LOWER than this oil had BEFORE the Edelbrock Zinc
Good information there Dan! I have always been additive averse when it comes to oil. I figure if you just use a decent oil to begin with and change it out at a reasonable interval you will be fine.
There were some oils that increased in PSI value with additives but just as many that were significantly lower. Basically it's a big gamble putting in an additive that could potentially adversely effect the oils chemical structure.
I think in conclusion I came up with the two best oils for our minis being either the VR1 in conventional or that Mobile 1 synthetic in 15w50.
Quote from: 94touring on March 01, 2021, 09:39:36 PM
Also noteworthy with some more digging around various test pages.
"ZDDPlus" added to Royal Purple 20W50, API SN, synthetic = 63,595 psi
zinc = 2436 ppm (up 1848 ppm)
phos = 2053 ppm (up 1356 ppm)
moly = 2 ppm (up 2 ppm)
The psi value here is 24% LOWER than this oil had BEFORE the ZDDPlus was added to it. Oil companies always say to NEVER add anything to their oils, because adding anything will upset the carefully balanced additive package, and ruin the oil's chemical composition. And that is precisely what we see here. Adding ZDDPlus SIGNIFICANTLY REDUCED this oil's wear prevention capability. Just the opposite of what was promised. Buyer beware.
ZDDPlus" added to O'Reilly (house brand) 5W30, API SN, conventional = 56,728 psi
zinc = 2711 ppm (up 1848 ppm)
phos = 2172 ppm (up 1356 ppm)
moly = 2 ppm (up 2 ppm)
The psi value here is a whopping 38% LOWER than this oil had BEFORE the ZDDPlus
"Edelbrock Zinc Additive" added to Lucas 5W30, API SN, conventional = 51,545 psi
zinc = 1565 ppm (up 573 ppm)
phos = 1277 ppm (up 517 ppm)
moly = 15 ppm (up 15 ppm)
The psi value here is a "breath taking" 44% LOWER than this oil had BEFORE the Edelbrock Zinc
Very interesting. With the negative effects of the zinc additives it kind of makes sense why the manufacturers make no claims on what the additives actually do. The marketing is all on PPM of the zinc - not what it actually does to the oil it is added to.
QuoteVery interesting. With the negative effects of the zinc additives it kind of makes sense why the manufacturers make no claims on what the additives actually do. The marketing is all on PPM of the zinc - not what it actually does to the oil it is added to.
Yeah and I have 2 bottles of it on the shelf I get to toss in the trash now! I was just browsing ebay to buy some zinc additive in bulk to just have on hand. Glad I didn't do that. I probably wouldn't have pulled the plug on the Lucas hot rod oil had I seen these lab results, and it does seem to be that the race oils with very high zinc are "race only", so I'll just dilute it down and with something with a higher PSI rating. Lots of debate online on mixing oils and I'm not sure you'd never get a solid answer. Oil companies won't advice it because of lawyers on one hand but on the other there is everyone and their brother mixing oils without any engine failures. General safe consensus was mix same brand oils. Every car I own right now is due for an oil change so I'll go through 30 quarts in no time.
Menards carries Valvoline VR-1 Racing 20-50 for $4.99/qt. They often run a 55 cent per quart rebate on it as well. My brother has used VR-1 in his vintage race mini for years without any problems (or additives). He has been using the same cam since 1989. APT cam, Isky valve springs and I think Isky chilled iron lifters.
https://www.menards.com/main/tools-hardware/automotive-marine-hardware/automotive-marine-oil-oil-filters-accessories/valvoline-reg-vr1-racing-motor-oil-1-quart/822350/tools-hardware/automotive-marine-hardware/automotive-marine-oil-oil-filters-accessories/valvoline-reg-vr1-racing-motor-oil-1-quart/822347/p-1447439522826.htm
Dang too bad I don't have a Menards around Tulsa.
Yeah it's amazing what you can find at Menards. They have a lot of odd items for a home improvement store.
They have them here in KC, when you come up you can pick up a few cases
The study being quoted above has some problems, as that is not the only test you need for motor oils. We have a lot more to worry about. And that test only ran new oil, and was several years ago.
On a positive note, the Lucas WILL damage your cam over time. Anything over 1800 ppm of phosphorous will gall the cam, per SAE. Pengrade and VR1 are fine, but there are a lot more choices, as anything from the diesel CI
-4 category is great in manual gearbox Mini's, while Automatic Minis need MA2 motorcycle 10W-40 oil.
The other challenge for the old timers is to accept 10W-40 as a better option in powertrains that are in good condition. If you haven't read it, I suggest this download: https://www.widman.biz/mini_pics/classic-mini-oil.pdf
Saw this in Wal Mart today for $22.50. I'll have to do some research to see how much zinc and what the ratings are.
Found the tech sheet and it has 1400ppm zinc which is right where you want it. Apparently only sold in wally world.
Will have to keep an eye out for it. I have never seen it before.
I have recently added that to my paper on the selection of the right oil for our Minis (along with a few others sold for classics cars and Minis: https://www.widman.biz/mini_pics/classic-mini-oil.pdf
Quote from: Richard1 on April 26, 2022, 05:19:06 AM
I have recently added that to my paper on the selection of the right oil for our Minis (along with a few others sold for classics cars and Minis: https://www.widman.biz/mini_pics/classic-mini-oil.pdf
I'll have to dig into that once I have a moment. Looks like a big read. I'm still using VR1 20w50 and Mobile 1 synthetic in 15w50 in my minis. My VW motors get Vr1 10w30 that require high zinc. Might toss this classic castrol on the list for when I don't want to run full synthetic in the minis.
Quote from: 94touring on April 26, 2022, 05:35:39 AM
Quote from: Richard1 on April 26, 2022, 05:19:06 AM
I have recently added that to my paper on the selection of the right oil for our Minis (along with a few others sold for classics cars and Minis: https://www.widman.biz/mini_pics/classic-mini-oil.pdf
I'll have to dig into that once I have a moment. Looks like a big read. I'm still using VR1 20w50 and Mobile 1 synthetic in 15w50 in my minis. My VW motors get Vr1 10w30 that require high zinc. Might toss this classic castrol on the list for when I don't want to run full synthetic in the minis.
You might want to download it again, as, since you mentioned it, I added the Mobil 1 product to the table.
Great to see that Classic GTX...
Vr1 is great in my eyes... but good to have another choice.
Castrol Classic was listed available in my local Walmart + of course its on Amazon 19-20$ 5 Quarts.
I generally change the oil in mine because of time rather than miles anyway so it has always seemed a bit wasteful to spend the extra money on synthetic oil that will just be swapped out long before the benefits of using it are seen, which is generally a longer change interval.
Having a much cheaper conventional oil with the proper level of Zinc seems like better deal to me at least. I'll be changing it long before I hit any sort of mileage change requirement.
Well, you all need to drive your cars more!!!!
I just came back from a 2500 mile trip with mine.
Yeah I seem to barely drive mine anymore too!
Another thing that might have been covered earlier in this thread is it's much safer to run an oil that already has the proper zinc content rather than add additives to your oil. It's been shown that additives can adversely effect the oil you add it to.
Additives are always a gamble, you don't really know what's already in the fluid you are adding to nor do you really know what's actually in what you are adding. Who knows if the 2 are actually even compatible.
I was at wal-mart tonight and decided to stroll on over to the oil area since I needed some gear oil for the rear end in my old diesel truck. Sure enough they had the classic castrol stuff. I was also checking out the various diesel oils and noticed they are nearly all 15w-40 these days. So is that preferable over the 20w-50? The only 10w-40 stuff was just your regular car oils.
I need to read through the PDF you posted again, there was lots of info in there. I still have quite a bit of VR1 20w-50 so plan to use that up but need to stock back up on something because I only have enough of the VR1 left to do 2 more oil change.
I'd been searching on the Turbo/Supercharged FB group to see what oil to get for mine and the VR1 and Millers were top of the list. I couldn't find Millers other than MiniSport so going to go with VR1. I did get a jug of Swiftune racing oil for the rallycar, though...
https://swiftune.com/parts-shop/swiftune-20w-50-race-oil.html?msclkid=93bff21ed05111ec9c73c41a507067ec
Quote from: cstudep on April 26, 2022, 07:55:59 PM
Additives are always a gamble, you don't really know what's already in the fluid you are adding to nor do you really know what's actually in what you are adding. Who knows if the 2 are actually even compatible.
I was at wal-mart tonight and decided to stroll on over to the oil area since I needed some gear oil for the rear end in my old diesel truck. Sure enough they had the classic castrol stuff. I was also checking out the various diesel oils and noticed they are nearly all 15w-40 these days. So is that preferable over the 20w-50? The only 10w-40 stuff was just your regular car oils.
I need to read through the PDF you posted again, there was lots of info in there. I still have quite a bit of VR1 20w-50 so plan to use that up but need to stock back up on something because I only have enough of the VR1 left to do 1 more oil change.
15W-40 is better than 20W-50. Not as good in cold weather as 10W-40.
Lengthy read with some interesting information.
https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/2013/06/20/motor-oil-wear-test-ranking/
Did you read the preamble? Just a wee bit biased! ;D
Interesting read, and a lot of what he says mirrors Richard's conclusions on oil for our cars too. The points about zinc are interesting tho.....
Much more to read.....I'd like to send him a question about our Mini gearbox/engine oil requirements and see what he says. If anyone can figure out how to reach him via email or whatever, let me know _ I don't see anything in this article about how to reach him.....
Edit: Found it, left a question.
I was curious about how it relates to our gearbox as well. Hopefully he responds.
Did you add to the Q&A section?
Is there a direct link to his articles? He references them by number, do you have to login?
I did have to login, I did thru FB.....my question hasn't appeared yet, so I guess he hasn't responded.
One thing is definitely for certain to me which I already knew from past research, is it's a real gamble adding zinc additives or other enhancers to oil. And apparently needing X amount of zinc is a myth anyway.
That seems to be what he's saying, doesn't it? 8.gif
Yeah and I suppose that makes sense if psi ratings are what matter. But I'm not the engineer. Makes me wonder what oil is used on the life of one of our engines when you tear it down and find pitting. Low zinc or low psi rated oil. Interesting on the cam breakin procedure and a little interesting on oil change intervals.
Some of you may know Mike Kimball(Crazy Mike) from Mini meets, he just posted this in response to a question about oil for a supercharged car.
I have been using Motul 5100 15w50 for a very long time in the race car. It outlasts VR-1 (I've sent oil samples off 15 or so times) about two to one in lubricity longevity. The gearbox runs quieter and the syncros run easier than any other oil I've tried, and I've tried quite a few.
Motul's site recommends the 300V (for race), but it has a shorter expected lifespan and costs twice as much... and it suggests a few others than the 5100 for street. I use the latter because it's off the shelf at my local Kawasaki store.
https://www.motul.com/be/en/lubricants/recommendations/d5fd93ee6164a0478dbe931e1fdcdcfc?type_name=MINI+Cooper+S+Mk+I+%281964-1967%29 (https://www.motul.com/be/en/lubricants/recommendations/d5fd93ee6164a0478dbe931e1fdcdcfc?type_name=MINI+Cooper+S+Mk+I+%281964-1967%29)
~ It's kind of fun looking at the differences they mark for different years - it's all about the gearbox.
Also, try the French site for even more choices
Found it on Amazon:
https://smile.amazon.com/Motul-104083-Oil/dp/B00IKCY592/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=Motul-15W50-Synthetic-Liters-104083&qid=1654097994&sr=8-1 (https://smile.amazon.com/Motul-104083-Oil/dp/B00IKCY592/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=Motul-15W50-Synthetic-Liters-104083&qid=1654097994&sr=8-1)
Found the MSDS and tech data sheet for Motul
https://www.motul.com/us/en/products/5100-4t-15w50--2# (https://www.motul.com/us/en/products/5100-4t-15w50--2#)
https://azupim01.motul.com/media/motulData/DO/base/5100_4T_15W-50_en_FR_motul_15400_20211229.pdf (https://azupim01.motul.com/media/motulData/DO/base/5100_4T_15W-50_en_FR_motul_15400_20211229.pdf)
One of them wanted a email to view the PDF, I attached it.
It looks like they have 10W40 and 10W50 available as well.
Mike said he buys it at a local motorcycle shop.
Added: Interesting that neither document has the information I thought would be listed in an MSDS...
It does say:
Optimized Phosphorus and Sulfur content (JASO MA2 < 1200 ppm)
Quote from: 94touring on May 31, 2022, 02:25:55 PM
Lengthy read with some interesting information.
https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/2013/06/20/motor-oil-wear-test-ranking/
You are looking for my comments, so I will offer them.
I've followed this off and on for many years. He has some good points, and some false. He is overly defensive and self-flattering, but getting through that, originally I was skeptical over only having tested new oils, not how they lasted. He has now tested some and claims they continue to respond about the same.
Let me start by answering the question as to its application for our Mini gear boxes. Modern gasoline engine oils (API SP or SN) are NOT good for our gear boxes, as the friction modifiers are too slippery for synchronizers. They will cause poor shifting. And they would be murder on the AP Auto boxes, as they will cause excessive slipping and short disc life.
As I have said in my papers (https://www.widman.biz/uploads/Corvair_oil.pdf
https://www.widman.biz/mini_pics/classic-mini-oil.pdf), he dwells on the point that high zinc oils are bad for steel and should not be used. I refer to the SAE studies I read where 2000 ppm of phosphorous causes cam galling, and above 1600 ppm is dangerous. He says 1400 is damaging. Then, throughout the paper he refers to high zinc oils generically, when most formulations are 1000 to 1400 ppm.
He also now refers heavily to flat-tappet racing engine life relating to his testing, and maybe that is true, but in real life, those of us with flat tappet engines run them at slow speeds as well, and I don't see anything in his testing for slow sliding action protection, which is why large diesels still use a lot of ZDDP. I would like to see him add the ASTM FZ sliding EP performance test data for the oils.
It may not matter that he uses 230ºF for his testing, saying that is typical of engine oil temps, but that is 110ºC, and the only way I've gotten any engine oil temps to 110ºC is a hard mountain climb on a heavy, loaded SUV.
He also, while saying the thinner the better (more or less) oils are best for water cooled engines, recommending, in general an XW-30, he says air cooled engines run hotter and need thicker oils, recommending XW-50 or XW-60. That is totally false. The vast majority of air cooled Corvair's, mine included, run 10W-30, as GM recommended 60 years ago. There are a few 5W-40 or 15W-40 users in Las Vegas, and a few 20W-50 old timers.
He also refers mostly to zinc and how it more is just more miles, although he does mention that it competes for surface area with detergents. This is actually why you need more than 700 ppm or so, and another reason you don't want 2000 ppm. He does not consider phosphorous, which is still there in 5000 miles, but has changed physical composition and turned into Dihexyl phosphate.
Bottom line for me is he has some valid points that I'd like to believe for flat-tappet engines, but I'm not convinced, and in any event, they are not for gear boxes.
I just read way down in his blog where he talks about motorcycles and says his results are also true for wet clutches as long as the discs are in good condition. On this he is so far off base as to lose a lot of credibility. Without comparison to his study by brand, I have seen improvements in shifting with motorcycles of up to 5 seconds of less slipping, even with brand new motorcycles, and the extension of oil changes from excess particles of 100%. Moto-taxis have gone from 6 month clutch life with SN oils to 24 months.
Richard, thank you for your responses. I have always appreciated your insights and research.
I think I stumbled across your posts when looking for a way to reclaim the trim on my son's El Camino many years ago.
"says air cooled engines run hotter and need thicker oils"
That also caught my attention Richard as not true.
Quote from: 94touring on June 02, 2022, 03:34:55 PM
"says air cooled engines run hotter and need thicker oils"
That also caught my attention Richard as not true.
VW's used thicker oils back in the early days, mainly because they had no oil filters, so tolerances were designed for more particles to circulate without too much damage, and 20W-50, or SAE 50 originally, would encapsulate the particles and circulate through the wide tolerances.
Quote from: Richard1 on June 02, 2022, 04:34:37 PM
Quote from: 94touring on June 02, 2022, 03:34:55 PM
"says air cooled engines run hotter and need thicker oils"
That also caught my attention Richard as not true.
VW's used thicker oils back in the early days, mainly because they had no oil filters, so tolerances were designed for more particles to circulate without too much damage, and 20W-50, or SAE 50 originally, would encapsulate the particles and circulate through the wide tolerances.
I know the type 1 engines that were used in bugs and early busses initially used 30wt. Reading extensively on the samba for awhile now and it seems to be verified tried and true thinner oil runs cooler. Our silly engines only held about 2.5 quarts and had no filter either! The system I put in place on my bus holds 6 quarts, has a filter, external oil cooler, stock cooler completely removed and bypassed, and 10w30 synthetic. Runs cool on oil temps with the exception of running 75-80mph on a hot day in some stiff winds or up long hills. Aerodynamically it's at a disadvantage.
I did end up using that Classic Castrol 20w50 this past week on an oil change for the mini. I haven't been driving it enough to really use synthetic!