quick oil zinc information to pass along

Started by 94touring, March 01, 2021, 04:06:18 PM

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MiniDave

Well, you all need to drive your cars more!!!!

I just came back from a 2500 mile trip with mine.
Complete failure at retirement

1989 Cooper Racing Green
2009 Clubman S
2014 Audi Allroad

94touring

Yeah I seem to barely drive mine anymore too!

Another thing that might have been covered earlier in this thread is it's much safer to run an oil that already has the proper zinc content rather than add additives to your oil.  It's been shown that additives can adversely effect the oil you add it to.

cstudep

#27
Additives are always a gamble, you don't really know what's already in the fluid you are adding to nor do you really know what's actually in what you are adding. Who knows if the 2 are actually even compatible.

I was at wal-mart tonight and decided to stroll on over to the oil area since I needed some gear oil for the rear end in my old diesel truck. Sure enough they had the classic castrol stuff. I was also checking out the various diesel oils and noticed they are nearly all 15w-40 these days. So is that preferable over the 20w-50? The only 10w-40 stuff was just your regular car oils.

I need to read through the PDF you posted again, there was lots of info in there. I still have quite a bit of VR1 20w-50 so plan to use that up but need to stock back up on something because I only have enough of the VR1 left to do 2 more oil change.

Mudhen

I'd been searching on the Turbo/Supercharged FB group to see what oil to get for mine and the VR1 and Millers were top of the list.  I couldn't find Millers other than MiniSport so going to go with VR1.  I did get a jug of Swiftune racing oil for the rallycar, though...

https://swiftune.com/parts-shop/swiftune-20w-50-race-oil.html?msclkid=93bff21ed05111ec9c73c41a507067ec

Richard1

Quote from: cstudep on April 26, 2022, 07:55:59 PM
Additives are always a gamble, you don't really know what's already in the fluid you are adding to nor do you really know what's actually in what you are adding. Who knows if the 2 are actually even compatible.

I was at wal-mart tonight and decided to stroll on over to the oil area since I needed some gear oil for the rear end in my old diesel truck. Sure enough they had the classic castrol stuff. I was also checking out the various diesel oils and noticed they are nearly all 15w-40 these days. So is that preferable over the 20w-50? The only 10w-40 stuff was just your regular car oils.

I need to read through the PDF you posted again, there was lots of info in there. I still have quite a bit of VR1 20w-50 so plan to use that up but need to stock back up on something because I only have enough of the VR1 left to do 1 more oil change.

15W-40 is better than 20W-50. Not as good in cold weather as 10W-40.

94touring

#30
Lengthy read with some interesting information.

https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/2013/06/20/motor-oil-wear-test-ranking/

MiniDave

#31
Did you read the preamble? Just a wee bit biased!   ;D

Interesting read, and a lot of what he says mirrors Richard's conclusions on oil for our cars too. The points about zinc are interesting tho.....

Much more to read.....I'd like to send him a question about our Mini gearbox/engine oil requirements and see what he says. If anyone can figure out how to reach him via email or whatever, let me know _ I don't see anything in this article about how to reach him.....

Edit: Found it, left a question.
Complete failure at retirement

1989 Cooper Racing Green
2009 Clubman S
2014 Audi Allroad

94touring

I was curious about how it relates to our gearbox as well.  Hopefully he responds.

tmsmini

Did you add to the Q&A section?

Is there a direct link to his articles? He references them by number, do you have to login?

MiniDave

#34
I did have to login, I did thru FB.....my question hasn't appeared yet, so I guess he hasn't responded.
Complete failure at retirement

1989 Cooper Racing Green
2009 Clubman S
2014 Audi Allroad

94touring

One thing is definitely for certain to me which I already knew from past research, is it's a real gamble adding zinc additives or other enhancers to oil.  And apparently needing X amount of zinc is a myth anyway. 

MiniDave

That seems to be what he's saying, doesn't it?  8.gif
Complete failure at retirement

1989 Cooper Racing Green
2009 Clubman S
2014 Audi Allroad

94touring

Yeah and I suppose that makes sense if psi ratings are what matter.  But I'm not the engineer.  Makes me wonder what oil is used on the life of one of our engines when you tear it down and find pitting. Low zinc or low psi rated oil.  Interesting on the cam breakin procedure and a little interesting on oil change intervals. 

tmsmini

Some of you may know Mike Kimball(Crazy Mike) from Mini meets, he just posted this in response to a question about oil for a supercharged car.

I have been using Motul 5100 15w50 for a very long time in the race car. It outlasts VR-1 (I've sent oil samples off 15 or so times) about two to one in lubricity longevity. The gearbox runs quieter and the syncros run easier than any other oil I've tried, and I've tried quite a few.
Motul's site recommends the 300V (for race), but it has a shorter expected lifespan and costs twice as much... and it suggests a few others than the 5100 for street. I use the latter because it's off the shelf at my local Kawasaki store.
https://www.motul.com/be/en/lubricants/recommendations/d5fd93ee6164a0478dbe931e1fdcdcfc?type_name=MINI+Cooper+S+Mk+I+%281964-1967%29
~ It's kind of fun looking at the differences they mark for different years - it's all about the gearbox.
Also, try the French site for even more choices

Found it on Amazon:
https://smile.amazon.com/Motul-104083-Oil/dp/B00IKCY592/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=Motul-15W50-Synthetic-Liters-104083&qid=1654097994&sr=8-1



tmsmini

#39
Found the MSDS and tech data sheet for Motul
https://www.motul.com/us/en/products/5100-4t-15w50--2#

https://azupim01.motul.com/media/motulData/DO/base/5100_4T_15W-50_en_FR_motul_15400_20211229.pdf

One of them wanted a email to view the PDF, I attached it.
It looks like they have 10W40 and 10W50 available as well.
Mike said he buys it at a local motorcycle shop.

Added: Interesting that neither document has the information I thought would be listed in an MSDS...
It does say:
Optimized Phosphorus and Sulfur content (JASO MA2 < 1200 ppm)

Richard1

Quote from: 94touring on May 31, 2022, 02:25:55 PM
Lengthy read with some interesting information.

https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/2013/06/20/motor-oil-wear-test-ranking/

You are looking for my comments, so I will offer them.
I've followed this off and on for many years. He has some good points, and some false. He is overly defensive and self-flattering, but getting through that, originally I was skeptical over only having tested new oils, not how they lasted. He has now tested some and claims they continue to respond about the same.

Let me start by answering the question as to its application for our Mini gear boxes. Modern gasoline engine oils (API SP or SN) are NOT good for our gear boxes, as the friction modifiers are too slippery for synchronizers. They will cause poor shifting. And they would be murder on the AP Auto boxes, as they will cause excessive slipping and short disc life.

As I have said in my papers (https://www.widman.biz/uploads/Corvair_oil.pdf
https://www.widman.biz/mini_pics/classic-mini-oil.pdf), he dwells on the point that high zinc oils are bad for steel and should not be used. I refer to the SAE studies I read where 2000 ppm of phosphorous causes cam galling, and above 1600 ppm is dangerous. He says 1400 is damaging. Then, throughout the paper he refers to high zinc oils generically, when most formulations are 1000 to 1400 ppm.

He also now refers heavily to flat-tappet racing engine life relating to his testing, and maybe that is true, but in real life, those of us with flat tappet engines run them at slow speeds as well, and I don't see anything in his testing for slow sliding action protection, which is why large diesels still use a lot of ZDDP. I would like to see him add the ASTM FZ sliding EP performance test data for the oils.

It may not matter that he uses 230ºF for his testing, saying that is typical of engine oil temps, but that is 110ºC, and the only way I've gotten any engine oil temps to 110ºC is a hard mountain climb on a heavy, loaded SUV.

He also, while saying the thinner the better (more or less) oils are best for water cooled engines, recommending, in general an XW-30, he says air cooled engines run hotter and need thicker oils, recommending XW-50 or XW-60. That is totally false. The vast majority of air cooled Corvair's, mine included, run 10W-30, as GM recommended 60 years ago. There are a few 5W-40 or 15W-40 users in Las Vegas, and a few 20W-50 old timers.

He also refers mostly to zinc and how it more is just more miles, although he does mention that it competes for surface area with detergents. This is actually why you need more than 700 ppm or so, and another reason you don't want 2000 ppm. He does not consider phosphorous, which is still there in 5000 miles, but  has changed physical composition and turned into Dihexyl phosphate.

Bottom line for me is he has some valid points that I'd like to believe for flat-tappet engines, but I'm not convinced, and in any event, they are not for gear boxes.


Richard1

I just read way down in his blog where he talks about motorcycles and says his results are also true for wet clutches as long as the discs are in good condition. On this he is so far off base as to lose a lot of credibility. Without comparison to his study by brand, I have seen improvements in shifting with motorcycles of up to 5 seconds of less slipping, even with brand new motorcycles, and the extension of oil changes from excess particles of 100%. Moto-taxis have gone from 6 month clutch life with SN oils to 24 months.

tmsmini

Richard, thank you for your responses. I have always appreciated your insights and research.
I think I stumbled across your posts when looking for a way to reclaim the trim on my son's El Camino many years ago.

94touring

 "says air cooled engines run hotter and need thicker oils"

That also caught my attention Richard as not true. 

Richard1

Quote from: 94touring on June 02, 2022, 03:34:55 PM
"says air cooled engines run hotter and need thicker oils"

That also caught my attention Richard as not true.

VW's used thicker oils back in the early days, mainly because they had no oil filters, so tolerances were designed for more particles to circulate without too much damage, and 20W-50, or SAE 50 originally, would encapsulate the particles and circulate through the wide tolerances.

94touring

Quote from: Richard1 on June 02, 2022, 04:34:37 PM
Quote from: 94touring on June 02, 2022, 03:34:55 PM
"says air cooled engines run hotter and need thicker oils"

That also caught my attention Richard as not true.

VW's used thicker oils back in the early days, mainly because they had no oil filters, so tolerances were designed for more particles to circulate without too much damage, and 20W-50, or SAE 50 originally, would encapsulate the particles and circulate through the wide tolerances.

I know the type 1 engines that were used in bugs and early busses initially used 30wt.  Reading extensively on the samba for awhile now and it seems to be verified tried and true thinner oil runs cooler.    Our silly engines only held about 2.5 quarts and had no filter either!  The system I put in place on my bus holds 6 quarts, has a filter, external oil cooler, stock cooler completely removed and bypassed, and 10w30 synthetic.  Runs cool on oil temps with the exception of running 75-80mph on a hot day in some stiff winds or up long hills.  Aerodynamically it's at a disadvantage. 

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