Trailer experts?

Started by 94touring, September 17, 2020, 06:08:28 AM

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cstudep

Ah ok, well that certainly makes it even more strange that you would just suddenly have problems like that. It's not that easy to bend an axle, I imagine you would have remembered such an event that could do that sort of damage. Rotating another tire in with the same result also likely rules out any sort of tire issue like inflation or belt separation.

Is it a spring setup or a torsion axle setup? There are lots of moving parts bolted into a dual axle spring setup that could either be loose or worn causing a shift in the axle alignment. I had to replace all the little plates on mine that connect the springs to the brackets because some of the holes were ob-round from wear, but my trailer is 20 years old not 2. I also had a small single axle trailer one time that the axle tube was rotating in the u-bolt ever so slightly on one side due to the ubolt being a little loose. It caused tire issues on that side. It was not so loose that it was obvious, but when I put a big pipe wrench on it I could get it to spin on that side. Some axles have the spring plates welded on and some do not. They all seem to be built slightly different, that is for sure.

If it's a torsion axle the rubber torsion material inside the axle at that wheel location could have/be failing and if that is the case the only option is axle replacement. I had to replace a torsion axle on a pop up camper due to that. It's fairly rare but it can happen.

94touring

#26
Well it's square.  Here's my results.  Camber varies but all were negative.  I measured wheel to wheel from rim lip faces, then a plum bob from hub center to the floor and marked with a magic marker.  Plum bob from hitch center to ground and magic marker, then ran a tape between the markings.
Measurements were balls on.  Now to see if my press jack is up to the task of bending axles.

Edit:  don't know why I wrote and said negative camber.  They're positive and suppose to be positive about a half without load.

94touring

All this stuff compares the same on all 4 corners.

MiniDave

#28
Quote from: jeff10049 on September 17, 2020, 10:24:52 PM
Quote from: MiniDave on September 17, 2020, 10:37:22 AM
Outside wearing faster than the inside is indicative of a toe -in situation. Or excessive camber.....

I called a friend that owns a high end trailer mfr company - he says it's alignment. He's seen axles where they didn't get the stub welded on accurately, or axles that are slightly bent - do this very thing.

So mission or inTech? Or is there a third high end company always interested in the high end stuff.

I can't remember the name of his company, it's in Cuba, Mo.....I don't think they manufacture the trailers, but just upgrade and install specific equipment to the customer's request, then paint and such. I say "high end" only because of the prices of the stuff they sell - well, it's HIGH to me!  :-)

But maybe I don't travel in those rarefied enough circles - I don't think they outfit NASCAR or IMSA level stuff but I dunno.

Found it - Flying A motorsports

He bought a Mini he want's me to build a hotter motor for, maybe a 5 speed gearbox.
Complete failure at retirement

1989 Cooper Racing Green
2009 Clubman S
2014 Audi Allroad

MiniDave

#29
what are the .025 and .075 numbers representing?

Like has been said, a big truck alignment shop can straighten those axles if they're not quite straight.
Complete failure at retirement

1989 Cooper Racing Green
2009 Clubman S
2014 Audi Allroad

94touring


cstudep

So the one with the issue has the least amount of camber and was also the one with the most amount of tightening required on the hub. Perhaps it's just a combination of all the little oddities landing on that one location.

Those little plates attaching the springs to the equalizers is what I had to replace on mine but like I said, they were 20 years old. I am sure yours are probably fine. I would check to make sure everything is moving around good on that side and not hanging up. If the equalizer is not moving around fairly easily it could be putting that tire in a bind.

I'd be tempted to lube everything up well, tighten the hubs up (which you already did), rotate another tire to that location and pull it around for a bit. If it still wears I'd guess the camber at that location may need to be adjusted to be closer to the others. Camber is fairly easy to adjust with some chains and a bottle jack if you can get it off the ground far enough to have the room. I would guess a trailer place that works on them regularly wouldn't charge much to do it either. I had to have a whole new tilt mechanism/tongue welded up on my tilt trailer and it was less than $400 and they had it done in 2 days.


94touring

Making progress. Turns out my 12 ton bottle jack doesn't jack on it's side.  So put my 5000lb winch on upside down.  It's bolted through the wood with large washers where I have it mounted, which thus far hasn't been an issue pulling minis up a ramp. Now with full pull it's about to pull through the wood, or is at least wallowing out the holes.  Going to weld up a plate to the frame and continue.  I have it 1/16" toe in, so not much further to go.

94touring

I got it to zero toe giving it everything my winch had.  That should suffice.  It's still square as well.  I guess the next thing will be getting new tires and going for a drive.  Anyone need a car hauled?   Going to see if I can increase camber on this corner to closer to negative 0.5.  Other thing I may as well do is fix some of the non functional led lights.  I have a few out and looks like poor wiring.  Time to use my new soldering iron.  And I didn't like these...lack of welds, so going to weld a few things. 

MiniDave

I HATE scotch locks with a white hot passion......all they do is fail....anything is better than that, even twisted up and taped with masking tape will work better than those damn things! Can't tell you how many cars I've found those on, and every time it was an issue!  50.gif

Be sure to wire brush all the paint off those joints before you weld them.....

I'm glad you didn't wind up cutting and rewelding the axle, even if Jeff does say it's OK.  77.gif
Complete failure at retirement

1989 Cooper Racing Green
2009 Clubman S
2014 Audi Allroad

94touring

Running out of time for the camber adjustment but did get the thing mostly rewired.  They used a ton of those clips.  All the lights work now.  Two new tires and a spare wheel ordered also. 

cstudep

I agree with Dave, scotch locks are quite possibly the worst invention ever created. Why damn near every trailer manufacturer and/or after market hitch installer insists on using them is beyond me. Twisting the wires together even without tape is an instant upgrade.

tsumini

Saw this a little late but may add a couple things. Not a trailer expert but have built and repaired a couple.
IMO I agree that 1/4 in. misalignment and camber is excessive for tires so close to each other. You may want check the other side (no wear?) and compare.
FWIW: think of the tires as two independent gyroscopes on a common frame (stub axle). The spin axes(google it) of both tires must be close to parallel in both fore/aft and up/down directions or one will scrub as some have suggested.
As I have suggested elsewhere a wireless pressure temperature monitor can help to identify impending problems. Is suspect the worn tire was significantly hotter than others.

94touring

I'm going to run a line along side the wheels today before pulling it back out of the shop.  I know just eye balling that it looks better already.  Will attempt to increase camber on the bad corner to equalize it. I think also I'll winch this other shell on the trailer that's rolling around the shop while the owner gets past covid financial insecurity.  I have an engine to haul to Dave and can toss it on the trailer for trip and see how the tires do with the weight in the back.  Looking at a pair of electric brakes to install also.  It stops "fine" as is but if I really have to get on the brakes the assistance would be good. 

tsumini

Unless your tow vehicle is marginal and all you haul are light loads IMO I wouldn't bother with brakes. Just my opinion tho.

cstudep

if you really want brakes, etrailer is a decent place to get that sort of stuff. Since you likely have 3500lb axles with the 4 bolt flange they should be the 10" version.
https://www.etrailer.com/dept-pg-Trailer_Brakes.aspx

The laws on brake requirements have changed a lot over the years and probably vary by state I'd guess. As far as I know the person pulling the trailer is responsible for being within compliance so if the DOT stops you for some reason they can and likely will impound the trailer until it's brought within whatever compliance that may be. I used to pull a trailer all over the country a lot (not commercially) and got stopped in Des Moines Iowa one time by the DOT, it was a MAJOR hassle. Your chances of getting stopped by the DOT with just your average flat bed are pretty slim and in all the years I pulled one that one time I got stopped was the only time I had an issue, but boy was that one time an expensive,time consuming, memorable affair.

In shopping for trailers recently I noticed most have brakes on all axles now as standard where it used to be only one axle had brakes if they had them at all. I am sure they build them to the most stringent state standards to make sure they are 50 state compliant.


94touring

#41
Ran a string...  left side pretty much zero gap across all 4 rubber tire faces, maybe a 16th here or there but insignificant.  Right side has that front right side with the issues about 1/8 to 3/16" toe in with the other 3 rubber faces being zeroed.  Back to bending...

MiniDave

#42
Did you mean 1/8" to 3/16"?   5/16" is more than the 1/4" you said you had before.

This comes from AAA "All trailers and semitrailers with a gross weight of load and vehicle of more than 4,000 lbs. must have properly functioning brakes controlled by the operator of the motor vehicle. Breakaway brakes are required on all trailers with a registered weight of over 3000 lbs."

Does OK require a license plate on trailers? Kansas doesn't for small ones like mine - under 2K lbs.

In Oklahoma, it says "all wheels", just FYI. cstudep makes a good point about how most flatbeds aren't really the target of the law, but if you should get stopped and don't meet the rules - it could be a major hassle.

Oklahoma also says they have to be breakaway brakes too.....maybe before you buy anything you should read up on what the Oklahoma law is so you get the right stuff?

I know you've made numerous trips with absolutely no issues......I wonder how the law treats cars being flat towed - if it requires operator controlled and breakaway brakes on them too? I'll bet the RV industry knows.....I do know in England you have to have them on anything being towed.

Edit: most states go by the weight of the towed vehicle - with most requiring brakes for anything over 2-3K lbs, which is not an issue towing a Mini!  ;D Some have the requirement of being able to stop from 20 mph in 40 ft, again easy to do I would think with a 1500lb Mini on back, so I think I'm good with flat towing.

Although there was that one time when i was going about 35mph and a lady turned in front of me - the car did not want to whoa up! That was a code brown moment, for sure!

BTW, you don't need the trailer to bring that engine up, just toss it in the back of the pickup truck, we can lift it out again with my engine hoist. That way if you're using it for parking like you said, you don't have move anything....

Now that I think about it, John's twin axle trailer doesn't have brakes either, I'll bet he's counting on being under the 3K lb limit when towing an LBC......but I'll bet he isn't.

Complete failure at retirement

1989 Cooper Racing Green
2009 Clubman S
2014 Audi Allroad

94touring

#43
3/16".

Trailer weight is 1500lbs empty.  Ok doesn't require plates.  It's at the option to register it for non commercial users.

I'd bring the trailer to test tire wear.

kcmini

i have a 20 foot car trailer with cheep china tires one of them wore the middle out of it the others were fine

jeff10049

Quote from: MiniDave on September 19, 2020, 08:08:20 AM

I know you've made numerous trips with absolutely no issues......I wonder how the law treats cars being flat towed - if it requires operator controlled and breakaway brakes on them too? I'll bet the RV industry knows.....I do know in England you have to have them on anything being towed.

Edit: most states go by the weight of the towed vehicle - with most requiring brakes for anything over 2-3K lbs, which is not an issue towing a Mini!  ;D Some have the requirement of being able to stop from 20 mph in 40 ft, again easy to do I would think with a 1500lb Mini on back, so I think I'm good with flat towing.


A big part of our business is tow cars we almost always do brake systems these days. You need to have it to cross into Canada as well. Air force one or M and G engineering are the two top systems. For someone just towing a classic mini if you had to have one I'd just get something shitty like a brake buddy and have it in the car just don't turn it on as they will never work right but having in there will satisfy the law.

jeff10049

Oh and Dan re your bottle jack not jacking on its side make sure the handle/pump is facing down almost all of them will work that way.

MiniDave

According to the RV site I read, Canada only requires it for cars over 2K lbs, but for current cars thats........well none! No one makes a modern car that weighs under 2K lbs......that leaves out everything but our ancient LBCs....  ;D
Complete failure at retirement

1989 Cooper Racing Green
2009 Clubman S
2014 Audi Allroad

94touring

Thanks for the tip Jeff, that was the final piece to the puzzle because I needed to focus on the bad corner.  I was also able to increase camber from 0.25° to about 0.60° on the bad corner.   Once I positioned the bottle jack on it's side and cranked on that corner for toe I was able to get a string to pull straight along the tire faces, within 1/16" toe out vs 3/16" toe in on the bad front.  End result was the front axle is almost too far toe out at nearly 1/8" total.  Left side is also straight with roughly 1/16" toe out between axles pulling a string.  I think I'm finally done. 

94touring

Spare rim showed up yesterday.  Tires shouldn't be too far behind.