My front right tire on my dual axle trailer rubs the tire bald for some unknown reason. Any ideas why this may be? Tires inflated properly, nothing wobbly going on, toe checks good. I can't figure it out.
Still doing this, and always the same location?
Have you checked in with the guy that made the trailer? Or the axle mfr?
You would think that has to be an alignment issue.....but I know you checked it more than once....
Does it go from the middle out or the edges in or?
I haven't the foggiest idea who I bought it from. Some guy an hour and a half from here in the middle of nowhere.
Here is the tire wear vs the tire behind it.
Are the spring swivel joints (the bracket system between the wheels) well lubricated?
Another person in the Mini community I know has an issue with his tandem axle trailer where going down sharp inclines to flats (such as exiting driveways) will sometimes cause that bracket to "hang" or bind and the rear wheel will be stuck in the air - leaving all the weight on that side riding on just the front wheel until it jars loose and the rear wheel drops back down.
The fact that it wears from the center out makes me think it's not an alignment issue.....seems if its toe causing it it would wear down one side first.
I'm not a trailer expert, but I did used to sell tires. Wear in the center of the tire is usually caused by over-inflation. If you were running correct pressures perhaps the tire was over-inflated in its previous life with the trailer owner which made the rubber thinner in the center of the tread.
Hard to see but the outside wore down more than the inside.
Then it's the opposite of what I said earlier - underinflation wears both outsides of the tread. As I said before it could've been done like that earlier under previous ownership and just manifesting now as it wears more.
Outside wearing faster than the inside is indicative of a toe -in situation. Or excessive camber.....
I called a friend that owns a high end trailer mfr company - he says it's alignment. He's seen axles where they didn't get the stub welded on accurately, or axles that are slightly bent - do this very thing.
Just watched a video on aligning a trailer. They basically just bend the axles as required using chains and jack.
My Son had the same issue with a single axle boat trailer axle.
We came to the conclusion the stub was either bent/miss aligned or never installed square or the axle tube was rusting from the inside causing the one wheel to have negative camber.
I could not find anyone around my area willing to weld on a new stub and give me some sort of guarantee it would be square so we ended up just replacing the whole 3500 lb axle complete with new hubs and bearings u bolts etc it was around $300.
Did some investigating. Got it jacked up and checked the hubs. All 4 were loose, the wheel that wears the tire was the worst. Tightened them up to where they spin freely yet won't have wobble. Next was toe plates to see exactly where I'm at. I thought I checked these last year when this problem arose but maybe not. Rears were 1/16" toe out, fronts were 1/4" toe in. I assume that much toe in is bad for a trailer. Doesn't look like there's anyway to adjust toe aside from bending some metal.
1/4" is enough to wear out a tire quickly.....sounds like some chains and a jack are up next?
Sometimes a 3 pounder and a solid chunk of oak to hit against will do it too. You don't want to bend it too far.....
I have an oxy/acetylene torch if you need it.
Quote from: MiniDave on September 17, 2020, 04:35:41 PM
1/4" is enough to wear out a tire quickly.....sounds like some chains and a jack are up next?
I got the chain hoist under there but I wasn't strong enough to make a dent in it.
maybe a 20 ton bottle jack and some lengths of steel?
Or call an truck alignment shop and ask how they would do it?
Is the stub axle bolted to the hub or welded on?
I believe welded but I'll verify tomorrow. I suppose there's nothing preventing me from cutting enough to get it to bend where I need it, then weld it back up. Although, since I believe it has a slight curve for camber, I wonder if I can rotate the whole thing to adjust toe. May back it into the shop tomorrow so I'm at least off the dirt.
Yeah.....where it comes to suspension parts I'm not a big fan of welding but then your welder is more powerful than mine.....just depends on how it's made, where you cut and what material it's made from - cast iron, cast steel etc and so on. For some of that you have to pre-heat it before you weld it and some has to cool slowly too.
You might just look into what a new axle costs - they're surprisingly not expensive......might be smarter and safer just to get a new bare axle shaft and swap out your parts.
Nearly all trailer axles have some camber built into them (high side to the top), some more than others, so that when it is loaded the axle straightens out a bit and the tires sit flat. If it's been overloaded multiple times, which is pretty easy to do, chances are an axle is bent.
With that kind of tire wear I'd guess a bent axle or otherwise lose/worn suspension parts depending on what kind of setup you have, torsion or sprung. Tightening up the hubs may help, but I would think a hub lose enough to cause that kind of wear would have been pretty noticeable while going down the road.
As everyone else has said, axles are surprisingly affordable, especially if all the other stuff is in decent shape. Brakes, etc. can all be moved over to the new axle so long as you get the same spec setup as your replacing. If you have to buy brake components, u-bolts, brackets, etc.. it starts to add up fairly quickly. It also could have been that way from day 1, there are a lot of poor quality trailer manufacturers out there. I figured that out when shopping for my hydraulic dump trailer.
Clancy says just buy a new axle, do NOT weld on that one.
Quote from: cstudep on September 17, 2020, 06:02:04 PM
Nearly all trailer axles have some camber built into them (high side to the top), some more than others, so that when it is loaded the axle straightens out a bit and the tires sit flat. If it's been overloaded multiple times, which is pretty easy to do, chances are an axle is bent.
With that kind of tire wear I'd guess a bent axle or otherwise lose/worn suspension parts depending on what kind of setup you have, torsion or sprung. Tightening up the hubs may help, but I would think a hub lose enough to cause that kind of wear would have been pretty noticeable while going down the road.
As everyone else has said, axles are surprisingly affordable, especially if all the other stuff is in decent shape. Brakes, etc. can all be moved over to the new axle so long as you get the same spec setup as your replacing. If you have to buy brake components, u-bolts, brackets, etc.. it starts to add up fairly quickly. It also could have been that way from day 1, there are a lot of poor quality trailer manufacturers out there. I figured that out when shopping for my hydraulic dump trailer.
I'm going to get it in my shop and take some more measurements tomorrow. Hub center to center between front and back hubs and front hubs to center point of the hitch. Maybe even run a string along wheel faces and see how they compare. I have my tools for checking camber and can see if they are the same or if something got bent. Only haul minis with it so wouldn't think I overloaded a dual axle trailer rated for 7k pounds but who knows. Those hubs seemed pretty loose to me, but it didn't drive poorly either.
Quote from: MPlayle on September 17, 2020, 09:12:01 AM
Are the spring swivel joints (the bracket system between the wheels) well lubricated?
Another person in the Mini community I know has an issue with his tandem axle trailer where going down sharp inclines to flats (such as exiting driveways) will sometimes cause that bracket to "hang" or bind and the rear wheel will be stuck in the air - leaving all the weight on that side riding on just the front wheel until it jars loose and the rear wheel drops back down.
No issues with any of that.
Being in the business we see this kind of wear all the time almost always a flipped spring hanger putting all the weight on one as mentioned.
If that's not the case usually a miss aligned axle and yes you can cut the spring perch off and rotate it some for toe. But if it is way out you'll need to bend it as the crown needs to stay mostly at the top.
Most heavy truck alignment shops should be able to bend it no problem.
Or bottle jack and chain.
The other commen mis aligment is one axle not being square to the other or square to the trailer but that tends to scrub both tires off.
If just one wheel is way off cut and weld or replace.
They are very weldable/bendable/repairable as long as you are confident with doing it.
Also axles are very cheap but sometimes by the time you figure out what you need settle on something close pull the old one weld perches on the new and install you could of just fixed it.
Double check your hangers.
Quote from: MiniDave on September 17, 2020, 10:37:22 AM
Outside wearing faster than the inside is indicative of a toe -in situation. Or excessive camber.....
I called a friend that owns a high end trailer mfr company - he says it's alignment. He's seen axles where they didn't get the stub welded on accurately, or axles that are slightly bent - do this very thing.
So mission or inTech? Or is there a thrid high end company always interested in the high end stuff.
Quote from: 94touring on September 17, 2020, 07:58:19 PM
I'm going to get it in my shop and take some more measurements tomorrow. Hub center to center between front and back hubs and front hubs to center point of the hitch. Maybe even run a string along wheel faces and see how they compare. I have my tools for checking camber and can see if they are the same or if something got bent. Only haul minis with it so wouldn't think I overloaded a dual axle trailer rated for 7k pounds but who knows. Those hubs seemed pretty loose to me, but it didn't drive poorly either.
Did you buy it new? If that is the case then there is no possible way you overloaded it with the mini's LOL. I thought I saw where you mentioned you bought it off someone, so I read that as it being new to you but not necessarily new. Some people can be really hard on trailers, especially a flat bed.
It was new. I haven't used it that much. Haul the occasional mini to Dave. I've had it a little over 2 years and it wasn't until the last couple trips the one tire started to wear. I reduced air pressure and rotated in a good tire and same thing.
Ah ok, well that certainly makes it even more strange that you would just suddenly have problems like that. It's not that easy to bend an axle, I imagine you would have remembered such an event that could do that sort of damage. Rotating another tire in with the same result also likely rules out any sort of tire issue like inflation or belt separation.
Is it a spring setup or a torsion axle setup? There are lots of moving parts bolted into a dual axle spring setup that could either be loose or worn causing a shift in the axle alignment. I had to replace all the little plates on mine that connect the springs to the brackets because some of the holes were ob-round from wear, but my trailer is 20 years old not 2. I also had a small single axle trailer one time that the axle tube was rotating in the u-bolt ever so slightly on one side due to the ubolt being a little loose. It caused tire issues on that side. It was not so loose that it was obvious, but when I put a big pipe wrench on it I could get it to spin on that side. Some axles have the spring plates welded on and some do not. They all seem to be built slightly different, that is for sure.
If it's a torsion axle the rubber torsion material inside the axle at that wheel location could have/be failing and if that is the case the only option is axle replacement. I had to replace a torsion axle on a pop up camper due to that. It's fairly rare but it can happen.
Well it's square. Here's my results. Camber varies but all were negative. I measured wheel to wheel from rim lip faces, then a plum bob from hub center to the floor and marked with a magic marker. Plum bob from hitch center to ground and magic marker, then ran a tape between the markings.
Measurements were balls on. Now to see if my press jack is up to the task of bending axles.
Edit: don't know why I wrote and said negative camber. They're positive and suppose to be positive about a half without load.
All this stuff compares the same on all 4 corners.
Quote from: jeff10049 on September 17, 2020, 10:24:52 PM
Quote from: MiniDave on September 17, 2020, 10:37:22 AM
Outside wearing faster than the inside is indicative of a toe -in situation. Or excessive camber.....
I called a friend that owns a high end trailer mfr company - he says it's alignment. He's seen axles where they didn't get the stub welded on accurately, or axles that are slightly bent - do this very thing.
So mission or inTech? Or is there a third high end company always interested in the high end stuff.
I can't remember the name of his company, it's in Cuba, Mo.....I don't think they manufacture the trailers, but just upgrade and install specific equipment to the customer's request, then paint and such. I say "high end" only because of the prices of the stuff they sell - well, it's HIGH to me! :-)
But maybe I don't travel in those rarefied enough circles - I don't think they outfit NASCAR or IMSA level stuff but I dunno.
Found it - Flying A motorsports
He bought a Mini he want's me to build a hotter motor for, maybe a 5 speed gearbox.
what are the .025 and .075 numbers representing?
Like has been said, a big truck alignment shop can straighten those axles if they're not quite straight.
Camber
So the one with the issue has the least amount of camber and was also the one with the most amount of tightening required on the hub. Perhaps it's just a combination of all the little oddities landing on that one location.
Those little plates attaching the springs to the equalizers is what I had to replace on mine but like I said, they were 20 years old. I am sure yours are probably fine. I would check to make sure everything is moving around good on that side and not hanging up. If the equalizer is not moving around fairly easily it could be putting that tire in a bind.
I'd be tempted to lube everything up well, tighten the hubs up (which you already did), rotate another tire to that location and pull it around for a bit. If it still wears I'd guess the camber at that location may need to be adjusted to be closer to the others. Camber is fairly easy to adjust with some chains and a bottle jack if you can get it off the ground far enough to have the room. I would guess a trailer place that works on them regularly wouldn't charge much to do it either. I had to have a whole new tilt mechanism/tongue welded up on my tilt trailer and it was less than $400 and they had it done in 2 days.
Making progress. Turns out my 12 ton bottle jack doesn't jack on it's side. So put my 5000lb winch on upside down. It's bolted through the wood with large washers where I have it mounted, which thus far hasn't been an issue pulling minis up a ramp. Now with full pull it's about to pull through the wood, or is at least wallowing out the holes. Going to weld up a plate to the frame and continue. I have it 1/16" toe in, so not much further to go.
I got it to zero toe giving it everything my winch had. That should suffice. It's still square as well. I guess the next thing will be getting new tires and going for a drive. Anyone need a car hauled? Going to see if I can increase camber on this corner to closer to negative 0.5. Other thing I may as well do is fix some of the non functional led lights. I have a few out and looks like poor wiring. Time to use my new soldering iron. And I didn't like these...lack of welds, so going to weld a few things.
I HATE scotch locks with a white hot passion......all they do is fail....anything is better than that, even twisted up and taped with masking tape will work better than those damn things! Can't tell you how many cars I've found those on, and every time it was an issue! 50.gif
Be sure to wire brush all the paint off those joints before you weld them.....
I'm glad you didn't wind up cutting and rewelding the axle, even if Jeff does say it's OK. 77.gif
Running out of time for the camber adjustment but did get the thing mostly rewired. They used a ton of those clips. All the lights work now. Two new tires and a spare wheel ordered also.
I agree with Dave, scotch locks are quite possibly the worst invention ever created. Why damn near every trailer manufacturer and/or after market hitch installer insists on using them is beyond me. Twisting the wires together even without tape is an instant upgrade.
Saw this a little late but may add a couple things. Not a trailer expert but have built and repaired a couple.
IMO I agree that 1/4 in. misalignment and camber is excessive for tires so close to each other. You may want check the other side (no wear?) and compare.
FWIW: think of the tires as two independent gyroscopes on a common frame (stub axle). The spin axes(google it) of both tires must be close to parallel in both fore/aft and up/down directions or one will scrub as some have suggested.
As I have suggested elsewhere a wireless pressure temperature monitor can help to identify impending problems. Is suspect the worn tire was significantly hotter than others.
I'm going to run a line along side the wheels today before pulling it back out of the shop. I know just eye balling that it looks better already. Will attempt to increase camber on the bad corner to equalize it. I think also I'll winch this other shell on the trailer that's rolling around the shop while the owner gets past covid financial insecurity. I have an engine to haul to Dave and can toss it on the trailer for trip and see how the tires do with the weight in the back. Looking at a pair of electric brakes to install also. It stops "fine" as is but if I really have to get on the brakes the assistance would be good.
Unless your tow vehicle is marginal and all you haul are light loads IMO I wouldn't bother with brakes. Just my opinion tho.
if you really want brakes, etrailer is a decent place to get that sort of stuff. Since you likely have 3500lb axles with the 4 bolt flange they should be the 10" version.
https://www.etrailer.com/dept-pg-Trailer_Brakes.aspx (https://www.etrailer.com/dept-pg-Trailer_Brakes.aspx)
The laws on brake requirements have changed a lot over the years and probably vary by state I'd guess. As far as I know the person pulling the trailer is responsible for being within compliance so if the DOT stops you for some reason they can and likely will impound the trailer until it's brought within whatever compliance that may be. I used to pull a trailer all over the country a lot (not commercially) and got stopped in Des Moines Iowa one time by the DOT, it was a MAJOR hassle. Your chances of getting stopped by the DOT with just your average flat bed are pretty slim and in all the years I pulled one that one time I got stopped was the only time I had an issue, but boy was that one time an expensive,time consuming, memorable affair.
In shopping for trailers recently I noticed most have brakes on all axles now as standard where it used to be only one axle had brakes if they had them at all. I am sure they build them to the most stringent state standards to make sure they are 50 state compliant.
Ran a string... left side pretty much zero gap across all 4 rubber tire faces, maybe a 16th here or there but insignificant. Right side has that front right side with the issues about 1/8 to 3/16" toe in with the other 3 rubber faces being zeroed. Back to bending...
Did you mean 1/8" to 3/16"? 5/16" is more than the 1/4" you said you had before.
This comes from AAA "All trailers and semitrailers with a gross weight of load and vehicle of more than 4,000 lbs. must have properly functioning brakes controlled by the operator of the motor vehicle. Breakaway brakes are required on all trailers with a registered weight of over 3000 lbs."
Does OK require a license plate on trailers? Kansas doesn't for small ones like mine - under 2K lbs.
In Oklahoma, it says "all wheels", just FYI. cstudep makes a good point about how most flatbeds aren't really the target of the law, but if you should get stopped and don't meet the rules - it could be a major hassle.
Oklahoma also says they have to be breakaway brakes too.....maybe before you buy anything you should read up on what the Oklahoma law is so you get the right stuff?
I know you've made numerous trips with absolutely no issues......I wonder how the law treats cars being flat towed - if it requires operator controlled and breakaway brakes on them too? I'll bet the RV industry knows.....I do know in England you have to have them on anything being towed.
Edit: most states go by the weight of the towed vehicle - with most requiring brakes for anything over 2-3K lbs, which is not an issue towing a Mini! ;D Some have the requirement of being able to stop from 20 mph in 40 ft, again easy to do I would think with a 1500lb Mini on back, so I think I'm good with flat towing.
Although there was that one time when i was going about 35mph and a lady turned in front of me - the car did not want to whoa up! That was a code brown moment, for sure!
BTW, you don't need the trailer to bring that engine up, just toss it in the back of the pickup truck, we can lift it out again with my engine hoist. That way if you're using it for parking like you said, you don't have move anything....
Now that I think about it, John's twin axle trailer doesn't have brakes either, I'll bet he's counting on being under the 3K lb limit when towing an LBC......but I'll bet he isn't.
3/16".
Trailer weight is 1500lbs empty. Ok doesn't require plates. It's at the option to register it for non commercial users.
I'd bring the trailer to test tire wear.
i have a 20 foot car trailer with cheep china tires one of them wore the middle out of it the others were fine
Quote from: MiniDave on September 19, 2020, 08:08:20 AM
I know you've made numerous trips with absolutely no issues......I wonder how the law treats cars being flat towed - if it requires operator controlled and breakaway brakes on them too? I'll bet the RV industry knows.....I do know in England you have to have them on anything being towed.
Edit: most states go by the weight of the towed vehicle - with most requiring brakes for anything over 2-3K lbs, which is not an issue towing a Mini! ;D Some have the requirement of being able to stop from 20 mph in 40 ft, again easy to do I would think with a 1500lb Mini on back, so I think I'm good with flat towing.
A big part of our business is tow cars we almost always do brake systems these days. You need to have it to cross into Canada as well. Air force one or M and G engineering are the two top systems. For someone just towing a classic mini if you had to have one I'd just get something shitty like a brake buddy and have it in the car just don't turn it on as they will never work right but having in there will satisfy the law.
Oh and Dan re your bottle jack not jacking on its side make sure the handle/pump is facing down almost all of them will work that way.
According to the RV site I read, Canada only requires it for cars over 2K lbs, but for current cars thats........well none! No one makes a modern car that weighs under 2K lbs......that leaves out everything but our ancient LBCs.... ;D
Thanks for the tip Jeff, that was the final piece to the puzzle because I needed to focus on the bad corner. I was also able to increase camber from 0.25° to about 0.60° on the bad corner. Once I positioned the bottle jack on it's side and cranked on that corner for toe I was able to get a string to pull straight along the tire faces, within 1/16" toe out vs 3/16" toe in on the bad front. End result was the front axle is almost too far toe out at nearly 1/8" total. Left side is also straight with roughly 1/16" toe out between axles pulling a string. I think I'm finally done.
Spare rim showed up yesterday. Tires shouldn't be too far behind.
I had to run an errand using my trailer today, and noticed the lights weren't working, so when I got it home I carried a battery out and started testing it out. First thing I found was a broken ground wire right near the plug that goes to the car, so I fixed that but they still weren't lighting up properly, so I cleaned the two ground wire connections at the light clusters in the back and viola! everything came up bright again. Job done.
Just in time to sell it.
I have no place to park it now except the driveway, and the city has been going easy on parking violations (you're only allowed to have it in your driveway for 48 hours - it's been 5 months now) due to Covid, but I have a feeling they're going to ramp it back up again so it will have to go. Too bad, as it's been pretty useful, but now that I don't need to haul my ZTR back and forth to the south property, I really don't need it all that much. It's been handy tho on occasion, and the MINI tows it easily.
My plugs from the trailer that go to my truck had just enough paint on them from assembly I would lose lights.
I think I'll hang a "for sale" sign on mine and see how long I can get away with parking it here! ;D
What size is it?
Curious as well, I have been looking for a small trailer I can pull behind my 4runner to haul my mower. I really like the small aluminum ones since they are lighter and my mower is a hog.
It's 5X8, I needed the 5' width for my ZTR which has a 52" deck. I've added the spare tire and holder, 3 newish tires, new wheel bearings and the front wheel/jack. The lights are newish LEDs and now they all work again! ;D
I had marine plywood on the deck the whole time I owned it. but it finally delaminated so I took it off again and it just has the mesh deck now.
It tows really easily behind my MINI Clubman, takes a 1 7/8" ball, BTW - not the more common 2". I think my ZTR probably weighs 600lbs, towed it with no stress.
I like the aluminum trailers too - especially one big enough to haul a Mini. Justin in NC bought one - said it was used to haul a side by side or ATV. Spendy tho - $2800 used, IIRC.
Yeah I was thinking one of the aluminum ones big enough to fit the mini would be perfect for the mower and the mini as my 20ft flat bed is a little over kill for hauling the mini around.
My mower is right around 1500lbs about the same as the mini LOL
This trailer is rated for 1500lbs, I don't think I've ever had more than 800-1000 on it. I moved my 2 tool boxes with it, they were 400 each......
If I had a 1500 lb mower I'd probably want something stronger, but that's going to be heavier too. In Kansas, under 2K lbs you don't need any license plates or reg, so no yearly fees.
What kind of lawn mower weighs 1500lbs and can ride on a 5X8 sized trailer?
I should have said about 1500lbs, it officially weighs 1293lbs. according to the manual. I only know because when I went to pick it up in Des Moines I borrowed my dad's little 5x8 trailer so I did not have to take the 20ft flat bed. I knew his was a 1500lb trailer with about 1300lb payload so I looked it up to make sure.....just under the limit. It is a Scag Turf Tiger with the smallest 54" deck, It just fit on the trailer.
It worked and I got it home but I was sure to take it easy and made sure I had 2 spares just to be safe. Luckily they were the same exact wheel/tire that my pop up camper has so I had a few laying around.
The weight of the mower is the biggest reason I was looking at the aluminum trailers, that and I thought it would be a great idea to have one just big enough for the mini as well.
Just put 8 hours on the trailer and Justin had the thing all over moving into his shop this past month. No more tire wear! The two new front tires even have some remnants of new tire rubber dimple spike thingies. Only thing I needed to do was once at Dave's was back the one wheel hub castle nut off one cotter pin hole. It was heating up on the drive and spraying grease on the rim. Also felt hot to the touch. No heating or grease issues on the drive back.
Glad to hear it was an easy fix, there was still a lot of grease in there so figured that would fix it. I had a boat several years ago that had a single axle trailer, had the bearings fail and one of the wheels came off, that was interesting. Luckily I was just leaving a gas station so I was only going about 25mph. Since trailer axles are so standardized just about all the parts stores stock the bearings and seals, changed everything out on the side of the road and then headed for the lake.