New Project 1911 hupmobile

Started by jeff10049, November 19, 2021, 01:48:17 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

MiniDave

Wow, I'm really impressed with you guys who can do this cad stuff with a computer, my cad skills are limited to Binky-style - cardboard aided design!

It's great that you've decided to take this on, the results will be pretty fantastic from the look of what you've done so far.

You and Paul with your 3-d printers - pretty amazing stuff to us mere mortals!

That braze turned out perfectly, you have to be chuffed over that.....
Complete failure at retirement

1989 Cooper Racing Green
2009 Clubman S
2014 Audi Allroad

jeff10049

#26
The engine I'm not sure where to start. I had it running so I didn't expect it to be so bad. After removing I found a crack nearly all the way around the crankcase it was almost broken in two.
An old repair had made it useable but wasn't right. It had a brass plate riveted on but the case was out of square and the patch had loose rivets. The engine was disassembled that's when I found a 6" long crack in the side cover that houses the cam it appears a crankshaft broke at one time causing the damage.

After much searching for a crankcase, I found several either also broken or not for sale. So I decided to attempt a repair I have been brazing cast for many years and that is how I repaired the side cover but this involved a lot of build-up and I wanted a little more strength than a braze repair. So after a few test welds on some other cast, I decided to use a 55 percent nickel rod I scraped the flux off so I could use it with the TIG welder.  I removed the patch beveled all the rivet holes ground all the cracks through preheated the case to 400 degrees and began placing weld beads 1/2" then peen the weld and repeat. It's a slow process and took a few days and consideration of where the welding was done and moving around to control warpage. The casting ended up straight to within .001 over its length.

During all this, the crankshaft had been sent for grinding and came back looking great .020 undersize cleaned it up. There's more of a story to that as well I'll get to it later.

I'll post some more pictures soon as they are on the computer

jeff10049

Ok here is the case with the patch, removed and some grinding started for welding and finished.
The gray color is where I sandblasted the repair to give it a cast texture.

MiniDave

Hole-lee-crap that's a lot of welding!!!  :-\
Complete failure at retirement

1989 Cooper Racing Green
2009 Clubman S
2014 Audi Allroad

jeff10049

Quote from: MiniDave on May 08, 2022, 08:36:15 AM
Wow, I'm really impressed with you guys who can do this cad stuff with a computer, my cad skills are limited to Binky-style - cardboard aided design!

It's great that you've decided to take this on, the results will be pretty fantastic from the look of what you've done so far.

You and Paul with your 3-d printers - pretty amazing stuff to us mere mortals!

That braze turned out perfectly, you have to be chuffed over that.....

I was happy with that 45% silver braze for sure I read about the color match years ago in a brass car magazine.

Dave or anyone else if you are interested in the cad stuff and or 3d printing. You can download fusion 360 cad free for a year you need a good computer to run it. Lots of youtube vids for support there are guys doing entire youtube courses for free for fusion 360. You can also play with tinker cad online for free but it's pretty limited compared to fusion.  A good 3d printer that can make very functional and accurate parts with only a hot-end upgrade can be had for under $500 or less brand new. I can print 1/4 20 threads in carbon fiber nylon with my cr10 and the bolt will screw right in off the printer and I can break the bolt off in the hole. (grade 5) 
You can print patterns for casting and use pla like lost wax for investment casting. Sometimes just being able to print up a spacer is great. I have been printing those mk 1 mini turn signal stock ends I was making in aluminum so much easier. I even bought some translucent green petg plastic and made the little end I know you can get them but I wanted to see how it would work came out great threaded right in and the light shines through it great.  And it was fun to learn how to draw it with the debossed lines around the edge being hollow and having threads it's a good beginner project in cad.

jeff10049

Quote from: MiniDave on May 08, 2022, 10:04:55 AM
Hole-lee-crap that's a lot of welding!!!  :-\

Yes, it was over $100 in Nickle rod but it came out sweet it has a few inclusions I was going to go back and fill but then I got to looking at the rest of the casing and they look exactly like all the natural inclusions all over the thing so I'm done.

Now for the side cover it is unique in that the camshaft is babbitted right into the cover the only way to remove is to melt out the babbitt. So I 3d printed a cam locating fixture to hold the cam in space when re-babbitting it and then melted out the babbitt so I could repair the side cover since the cam was out I sent it to delta to be reground and the lifters surfaced those guys are old school cam shop they can do anything.  It came back looking better than it has a right to.

With the cam out I ground a vee into the crack and used silcone bronze to braze up the cover I bolted it to the block to keep it straight and it came out good.

BruceK

Wow, this is fascinating stuff. Very cool that you're working creatively - CAD and CNC mold-making and 3-D printing - things that would not have been available for a restoration like this just 20 or 30 years ago.  This modern restoration will be so much better than what has been been done in the past.
1988 Austin Mini
2002 MINI Cooper S
1992 Toyota LiteAce (JDM)
1997 Jeep Wrangler Sahara

MiniDave

Back in that day would they have machined the mold for that rubber mat out of metal?
Complete failure at retirement

1989 Cooper Racing Green
2009 Clubman S
2014 Audi Allroad

tsumini


jeff10049

Quote from: MiniDave on May 08, 2022, 07:19:53 PM
Back in that day would they have machined the mold for that rubber mat out of metal?

I think a pattern maker would have made a wood pattern and used that to cast a metal mold to heat vulcanize the rubber in. I don't know that for sure but the detail is very good on the original we were pretty good at stuff in 1911 however it was done.

jeff10049

#35
I guess the next thing to cover is the cylinders. They are cast in pairs T head style the head and cylinder are integral. I found that dodge 218 fathead pistons that are readily available are the correct size the pin bore in the rods needs to be enlarged but that's no big deal.
I bought some .030 over pistons. Its a blind bore and I couldn't find any local shops (local being all of Oregon that wanted to do the job) even the motorcycle shops I called.
Sooo... like everything have to do it myself or send it far away after getting all the broken-off corroded bolts removed from the manifold holes. I used my friend's horizontal milling machine to bore the cylinders to .025 oversize. Next with help from Sunnen on how to custom grind stones and stroking technique to control choke in a blind cylinder honing operation. I started the honing to final size it took lots of switching between custom stones and standard stones and flipping stones over to control taper but the end result are bores straight to within .00015 or so. My dial bore gauge reads in .00025 increments and it only moves about half a division top to bottom. It was kind of fun I've never tackled a blind bore before it's a challenge but it worked out. In the video, my bore gauge is set to piston size I was shooting for .002 piston to wall clearance.  I have since increased that to .003 due to the type of cooling system the car has It may run hotter and the aluminum pistons expand more than the steel bore so I'm giving myself a safety margin on clearance. https://youtu.be/EPLZfKjmstw

jeff10049

7 pounds of tin Babbitt arrived in the ups. I can start working on getting the bearings poured or the cam installed.

Moving back in the drivetrain the gearbox needed one gear the reverse idler it also needed one shaft the shaft the laygear runs on was worn about 15 thousands but the bronze laygear bore is very nice. I think the laygear had been replaced and the old shaft reused. I made the shaft out of 4140 on my lathe and oil hardened it.  I again borrowed the use of my friends horizontal mill to make the reverse gear also out of 4140 but now the furnace pyrometer seems to be off as table salt did not melt when the temp gauge was at 1500 so we need to address that before heat treating the gear.

MiniDave

I'll be interested to see how you pour the babbitt for the bearings, especially the cam bearings.

Salt wouldn't melt at 1500*? That's how you harden gears?
Complete failure at retirement

1989 Cooper Racing Green
2009 Clubman S
2014 Audi Allroad

jeff10049

Quote from: MiniDave on May 22, 2022, 07:37:31 AM
I'll be interested to see how you pour the babbitt for the bearings, especially the cam bearings.

Salt wouldn't melt at 1500*? That's how you harden gears?

The salt is just a temp test it should be molten at exactly 1,474 degrees Fahrenheit.
The furnace didn't seem right so that was a test to see if it really was 1,500.
It is very important to know the temp as I will be working in the austenitizing range  of 4140 about 1570 after heating a quench in canola oil and then back in the furnace to draw back the hardness at about 500 degrees for 1 hour per inch of thickness should produce a hard and also though gear.



But yes you can heat the parts in molten salt bath very even heat certain nitriding processes are done this way but gas nitriding is more in favor these days the old salt bath lines are corossive and the nitriding ones are also toxic as hell.

Jeff

jeff10049

while covering the gearbox I suppose it's a good time to talk about the clutch.
It is a multidisc arrangement all disc are steel on steel running in the same oil as the gear box.
It of course was butchered like everything in the drive train wait until I get to the rear diff.
So the clutch housing and cover were ok the hub had broken at some point and a piece of copper was brazed well someone attempted to braze a piece of copper into the center and broach the keyways into it. It was so far off center that it was apparent to the eye that it wasn't even close and the keyways were broached at an angle it was tearing up the rest of the clutch. No wonder it didn't work well when I drove it. The hub being cast iron and butchered and other damage as a result of the butchering.
I decided to make a new one I ordered a piece of 6" round stock 6" long from the local steel yard heavy little bugger and expensive at $100.00 price of steel is crazy right now.
I have been whittling away at it in the lathe over a few days when I had an extra few minutes. I got all the diameters and counterbores done in the lathe and milled the spring pocket and clutch tab slots today next it's keways and then it's done. At that point, I will finally be able to reassemble a single piece of the car and call it done.


MiniDave

Wow, in that one pic of the hubs side by side, you can see how far off the center bit is!  ::)
Complete failure at retirement

1989 Cooper Racing Green
2009 Clubman S
2014 Audi Allroad

BruceK

It kind of blows my mind when you're talking about past repairs to the car which could have been done 100 years ago -  or more! 
1988 Austin Mini
2002 MINI Cooper S
1992 Toyota LiteAce (JDM)
1997 Jeep Wrangler Sahara

jeff10049

#42
Poured some Babbitt. Made a mold poured a rear transmission bearing and machined it to size the pour was great no inclusions. This bearing is the least critical and was a test of pouring and machining everything went well. Next is the poured in place cam shaft.

BruceK

1988 Austin Mini
2002 MINI Cooper S
1992 Toyota LiteAce (JDM)
1997 Jeep Wrangler Sahara

jeff10049

The cam is back in its housing  I made some dams for the babbitt out of aluminum and used plumbers putty for the rest of the daming coumpnd. The cam journals were coated with antiseiz and one layer of thin paper to give proper oil clearance the babbitt burns up the paper.
Three screws in each end were used to hold and align the cam for pouring the three center bearings after that the screws were backed out and the ends poured.  I sawed off the excess babbitt and now need to file or mill down the remaining excess and put in oil holes.


MiniDave

#45
So. it looks like getting the cam dead nuts centered and square is critical, as the cam is not removable once the bearings are poured? You think this is how they did it way back when, or did they have some kind of custom mold?
Complete failure at retirement

1989 Cooper Racing Green
2009 Clubman S
2014 Audi Allroad

jeff10049

Quote from: MiniDave on June 25, 2022, 07:37:30 AM
So. it looks like getting the cam dead nuts centered and square is critical, as the cam is not removable once the bearings are poured? You think this is how they did it way back when, or did they have some kind of custom mold?

They had a fixture that clamped to machined spots on the cam plate and held the cam in position all the bearings were poured at once. And from what I understand the final grind was done in place.
I could have held the cam a different way and poured all at once as well but for a one-off this was easy and easy to adjust. I had 3d printed some positioning washers for the ends when I took it apart but the cam was actually off from the factory a little more than I wanted since I can't grind it afterward to correct it. So I used the washers to get close and fine-tuned with the screws. Of course the cam gear also needs to be square to the crank gear in all planes. mesh is adjusted with gasket thickness. 

This also means when I line bore the crankcase the crank needs to be parallel not only with the deck but also the cam plate surface and in line front main to back main within .0002 The tolerances are not near as forgiving as a modern engine where the line bore could probably be off a .001 and be fine.

­čí▒ ­čí│