Self introduction

Started by scalpel_ninja, February 16, 2021, 06:59:33 PM

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scalpel_ninja

(Warning: a long-winded back story and overly enthusiastic self-introduction to follow)

Gallery: https://imgur.com/a/BzNnggv

Hello Everyone,

I'm very happy to have found this forum after seeing a referral by MiniDave on North American Motoring.

Within the past month, I've become a proud owner of a 1961(?) Morris 850. The story behind this car was 30 years in the making. My family's neighbor's son purchased the car in 1991 with the intent of making it a track car. He never got beyond a paint job and interior work as the 1275 engine sat uninstalled.

Fast forward 13 years and the neighbor's son moved away and left the car. My father purchased what would be my mother's last and favorite car: a yellow 2004 MINI Cooper. The Morris owner's father noticed the bright new car and approached me, asking if I was willing to help him clear out his shed by buying the shell, engine, and parts from him. Because I was a poor grad student at the time, I was unable. Sadly, a few years later the father suddenly passed away from a heart attack.

In 2013, I asked his widow if she would be willing to sell her son's car as I was financially capable and realized how desirable a genuine Mk1 is, especially with it being road legal and fully emissions exempt in California. She was reluctant and I hesitated to bring up what her late husband had proposed 9 years earlier. I later found out my parents had asked several times on my behalf but because she did not know her son's plans for the car, she turned them down.

Another 7 years go by and my mother who was ill for 25 years passed away on 12/28/2020. In the midst of helping my father clean up the old house, we struck up a conversation with the widow next door. My father brought up the car and to our surprise, she was very motivated to sell it as her son had just given her permission. In a flurry of payment and paperwork, here I am today, in possession of a car that was always right under my nose but out of reach.

Here's what I know about the car:

It came with a Morris 850 badge in the boot. The uninstalled engine is a 1275 non-S block with a remote shift gearbox.

It likely is a 1961 as I showed pictures of it to Graham at Heritage Garage and that's the estimate he gave me. He pointed out the metal around the windshields before 1962 did not have a stamped contour around where the seal sits. Mine is indeed unstamped and flat.

It's missing the original VIN plate, but I found an old application for registration dated 1991 with the VIN handwritten on the form, consistent with it being a Morris. The chassis number is also stamped on the engine bay stiffener, but was unfortunately drilled out by the previous owner to (unsuccessfully) install posts for hood locks. I only have the first and last two digits of a 5 digit number, though it is consistent with the one on the old application form.

The floor pan has been replaced, but with an alarming number of pop rivets poking out from the spray-on sealant. It was also painted in 1994 according to an old invoice. I'm guessing this might be when the VIN was stripped and became missing.

What I've done so far:

I replaced the dry-rotted tires on three 10x4.5 inch steel rims, even stretched the Camac tire over the single mismatched 6 inch wide wheel. The car is now a roller.

I cleaned out the rear brakes (it still had original Lockheed shoes and Minifin drums!) so the emergency brake would engage.

I sent the original VIN to the British Motor Museum to apply for a Heritage certificate and hopefully a definitive answer to this car's identity.

What I plan on doing in the near future:

I need to get a VIN on this car and register it. I'll mount the old 1275 engine just so the DMV and CHP will verify it and allow me to complete the VIN reassignment and registration process.

I need to strip down the body to investigate whether or not the repair panels were properly welded in place.

I'm going to remove the improperly sized and installed roll cage.

Where I need some guidance from the experts here:

While pursuing pure originality has it merits, I would really like to update this car with a modern engine.

The Minitec VTEC subframe with B series engine is popular, but I'm not too keen on cutting that much of the original fenders.

The McGee VTEC subframe with D Erie's engine and ability to use original parts looks promising, but does it require cutting much of the original fenders?

The Pro-Motive R1 does not appear to require any cutting, but I'm guessing it makes the car so wild that it can detract from the driving experience?

Thank you for any advice you can offer to a newbie like me.

MiniDave

Welcome to the forum!

Why not just put a good running 1275 in it, you already have one? Just need to make it run....
Complete failure at retirement

1989 Cooper Racing Green
2009 Clubman S
2014 Audi Allroad

BruceK

Wow. Quite a story. Welcome to Restoration Mini.

And I'm with Dave on trying the 1275.
1988 Austin Mini
2002 MINI Cooper S
1992 Toyota LiteAce (JDM)
1997 Jeep Wrangler Sahara

Willie_B

Welcome aboard. Quite the story. Car looks like a good place to start the mini owner experience.

What kind of front brakes does it have, disc or drum? It can be scary to have drum brakes on a 1275 mini as you can go faster than you can stop. Drums will work ok as long as regular adjustments are made to keep them at peak performance as you would need. So as others have stated, put the 1275 in. Then have fun driving it while you make upgrades to the brakes and suspension. A car not in motion will stay not in motion, as you noticed when it was your neighbors car. One that is drivable you will work hard to keep it that way as they are super fun to drive.

scalpel_ninja

Thank you for the kind welcomes and suggestions. Perhaps I've discounted using the 1275 I already have because I'm not familiar with what's involved in maintaining the older engine and what performance and driving experience I would get in return. I would say I'm handy, but far from mechanically inclined.

The car still has drums in the front and I definitely want to get the front brakes and suspension updated to discs and possibly coil overs. I'm ok leaving the back on drums and cones.

I've never actually driven a classic Mini with an A series engine, nor with a modern VTEC engine. So I find it difficult to determine how much of a gap in performance exists between the old engine and the new. Also, if sacrificing performance to keep the old would offer enough charm and driving experience to make it worthwhile?

BruceK

Quote from: scalpel_ninja on February 16, 2021, 11:16:37 PM

I would say I'm handy, but far from mechanically inclined.


Prediction: that will change.  Owning a Mini - which is extremely simple to work on - will allow you to grow your skills.  You have good resources available such as a Haynes manual, YouTube how-to videos, and of course this site and other internet resources to help and guide you.  Parts for Minis are very available. Tools needed are simple.  Advice is nearby.  Roll your sleeves up and dig in!
1988 Austin Mini
2002 MINI Cooper S
1992 Toyota LiteAce (JDM)
1997 Jeep Wrangler Sahara

BruceK

Quote from: scalpel_ninja on February 16, 2021, 11:16:37 PM

I've never actually driven a classic Mini with an A series engine, nor with a modern VTEC engine. So I find it difficult to determine how much of a gap in performance exists between the old engine and the new. Also, if sacrificing performance to keep the old would offer enough charm and driving experience to make it worthwhile?

Since you haven't driven a Mini, I'm guessing you have not ridden in one either. Perhaps you can find some local Mini owners and bum a ride to see what it's like with a 1275.  Actually, you're going to find a ride in a Mini thrilling even with an 850cc engine.  It's a whole different experience from a modern car.  You'll understand what all the fuss is about.
1988 Austin Mini
2002 MINI Cooper S
1992 Toyota LiteAce (JDM)
1997 Jeep Wrangler Sahara

94touring

Welcome to the forum!

I've driven both vtec d series and an assortment of minis over a very long period of time.  V tec has its advantages but I still prefer a built up A series mini engine. 

scalpel_ninja

Quote from: BruceK on February 17, 2021, 07:32:22 AM
Since you haven't driven a Mini, I'm guessing you have not ridden in one either. Perhaps you can find some local Mini owners and bum a ride to see what it's like with a 1275.  Actually, you're going to find a ride in a Mini thrilling even with an 850cc engine.  It's a whole different experience from a modern car.  You'll understand what all the fuss is about.

I definitely need to do a ride along to get a feel for the A series engine then!

Quote from: 94touring on February 17, 2021, 08:11:43 AM
Welcome to the forum!

I've driven both vtec d series and an assortment of minis over a very long period of time.  V tec has its advantages but I still prefer a built up A series mini engine. 

Thank you! If I may ask, what advantages did you have with the VTEC engine and what makes the A series a winner after experiencing both?

MiniDave

The engine is not a weak point with the Mini, so putting a Vtec in doesn't really change anything (except more power). I'd recommend you go up to Gildred Racing and see if they have a Vtec in stock you can drive. They also will do all the work you're planning and give you a finished car ready to go - of course, it's expensive!

John McGee's kit has the advantage of using the standard Mini suspension over the MiniTec kit that uses their own design. Coil overs are not an advantage, if you're looking for a better ride the "Smooth a Ride" cones from MiniSport are the way to go. MiniSport also has a slick disc brake conversion, as does MiniSpares. I would recommend getting all of your parts from one or the other - prices are significantly lower than any of the US suppliers.

Converting to a D series is not a plug and play, there is still quite a bit of fab work involved.

I'm not exactly in your neighborhood, but I rebuild Mini engines and transmissions....people ship them in from all over the country. Unless the one you have is seized, I'd consider dropping it in and seeing if you can make it run - you can also run these right on the shop floor - all it takes is a battery, some fuel and a little wiring.

While, in general I agree with Bruce - there is a certain amount of skill and tools needed to rebuild a Mini engine/trans. If you decide to go for it we'll help all we can of course.

And I agree, go get a ride in a Mini, then you'll be ready to go to work on yours! There is a large classic Mini club in LA and plenty of cars to see and learn from - as soon as the covid thing dies out once and for all.

There are lots of Mini themed events that happen all over the country (all over the world for that matter!) that you'll be welcomed to attend no matter what configuration your Mini is in. To me, that's the best part of owning a Mini - driving it! it's even more fun when you're with a group!
Complete failure at retirement

1989 Cooper Racing Green
2009 Clubman S
2014 Audi Allroad

94touring

Quote from: scalpel_ninja on February 17, 2021, 08:30:21 AM
Quote from: BruceK on February 17, 2021, 07:32:22 AM
Since you haven't driven a Mini, I'm guessing you have not ridden in one either. Perhaps you can find some local Mini owners and bum a ride to see what it's like with a 1275.  Actually, you're going to find a ride in a Mini thrilling even with an 850cc engine.  It's a whole different experience from a modern car.  You'll understand what all the fuss is about.

I definitely need to do a ride along to get a feel for the A series engine then!

Quote from: 94touring on February 17, 2021, 08:11:43 AM
Welcome to the forum!

I've driven both vtec d series and an assortment of minis over a very long period of time.  V tec has its advantages but I still prefer a built up A series mini engine. 

Thank you! If I may ask, what advantages did you have with the VTEC engine and what makes the A series a winner after experiencing both?

Having 5 speeds and the extra power on tap is nice with the vtec.  As Dave said it's not just plug and play and does require some work getting everything installed.  McGee's kit is the way to go if you do the swap though.  I prefer the feel of how the mini suspension and steering geometry are from the original design.  Vtec takes some of that away, though I haven't driven one of McGees.  My built up A series mini pretty much hung with a D series mini truck...till about 90mph then he walked away.  They do make 5 speed gear boxes for minis but unfortunately everything I've researched says I'd make too much power once I get around to installing my turbo kit.  THEN the D series truck is in trouble!  I need to redo my gearing to get more top end speed out of my setup anyways.  Maxing out at 96mph at 6k rpms.  It gets there quick though, for a mini that is.  Suspension wise those smooth-a-rides Dave mentioned are very good for comfort and still maintaining a mini feel.  I prefer a stiffer cone personally but there's about 100 different ways to configure the stock suspension to suit your taste. 

ve9aa

Welcome !

Bruce hit the nail on the head, I think.

Before you drive it too far or fast, you're going to want to have something more than drums on the front.

Have fun !

Quote from: BruceK on February 17, 2021, 07:32:22 AM
Quote from: scalpel_ninja on February 16, 2021, 11:16:37 PM

I've never actually driven a classic Mini with an A series engine, nor with a modern VTEC engine. So I find it difficult to determine how much of a gap in performance exists between the old engine and the new. Also, if sacrificing performance to keep the old would offer enough charm and driving experience to make it worthwhile?

Since you haven't driven a Mini, I'm guessing you have not ridden in one either. Perhaps you can find some local Mini owners and bum a ride to see what it's like with a 1275.  Actually, you're going to find a ride in a Mini thrilling even with an 850cc engine.  It's a whole different experience from a modern car.  You'll understand what all the fuss is about.
Mike in NB

30 minutes in a Mini is more therapeutic than 3 sessions at the shrink.

jedduh01

I think there is alot of good advise here so i will also add my 2Cents...

A stock' 1275 original power plant will WORK  as it will be very driveable and serviceable and fitting for how the MINI was built.

The Vtec road leads to many needed modifications and custom work to make it work... There just is not one place ( like mini spares) to just order your parts from or get support from.

I have driven 3 different 'swapped' cars.. and personally disliked each one.. none HANDLED like a real mini. Sure you can blast in a straight line and make a bunch of noise.  but can you actually control that power and put it down and make it scoot = Torque steer really takes away from a driving experience and feel . every Honda swap has it...

How are your own skills?  your own workshop?  Are you planning to DIY this or pay the man?    Learning on a 'stock' power plant is the way to learn... from there grow with other changes.  do you have the tools and equipment to do a 'non stock build  - Cutting. welding chopping , fitting all required for a non stock install.

  I would caution going for a Vtec test ride..   Riding in that new M3 is awesome . but is a vast difference from a  stock E30.     like comparing oranges to grapefruits= they look the same, but MAN they're way different.

   I have also personally seen a few Vtecs built, driven a little bit and sort of quickly sold on... ( and in one case, owner traded his D built swap series for a  STOCK 1275 Later model mini.. A comfortable driver for him and his family.)   

I know SORTED D swaps do exist.. a Mcgee swap is probably the best using the 'stock' suspension parts. but still plan on 15 - 20K to get that powerplant in + and operational.  How far do you want to go...

  Good luck!





 


MiniDave

My buddy here in KC has a Vtec D series in a Pup, he's had it for  13 years now so it was one of MiniTec's earliest efforts and it showed - the car was NOT sorted properly when he bought it and drove it home from Georgia to KC. So, I've done a ton of work on it over the years, to the point where it's now a pretty well sorted car - drives nicely, no torque steer, taller final drive so it's not all wound up on the highway and so on. He's done over 35K miles on it since he got it, so I'd say it's definitely not just a garage queen.

However, it's a Pup, so I really don't fit in it!

Dan wasn't keen on the way it drove, but I think it's fine.....

Here's the long thread on it that details a lot of what I've done on it.....

http://www.restorationmini.com/forum/index.php?topic=1711.0
Complete failure at retirement

1989 Cooper Racing Green
2009 Clubman S
2014 Audi Allroad

Red Riley

#14
Quote from: MiniDave on February 18, 2021, 09:43:01 AM
My buddy here in KC has a Vtec D series in a Pup, he's had it for  13 years now so it was one of MiniTec's earliest efforts and it showed - the car was NOT sorted properly when he bought it and drove it home from Georgia to KC. So, I've done a ton of work on it over the years, to the point where it's now a pretty well sorted car - drives nicely, no torque steer, taller final drive so it's not all wound up on the highway and so on. He's done over 35K miles on it since he got it, so I'd say it's definitely not just a garage queen.

However, it's a Pup, so I really don't fit in it!

Dan wasn't keen on the way it drove, but I think it's fine.....

Here's the long thread on it that details a lot of what I've done on it.....

http://www.restorationmini.com/forum/index.php?topic=1711.0

That's Don Ipoc's pup? My Elf was done right after that one. It had some teething issues too. The guy MiniTec had doing their electrical work at the time didn't do a great job on a few things. I did a patch job to keep the smoke in it after a couple of near disasters, but I eventually had to have a new fuse block and some rewiring done. I complained about the torque steer on mine, and Norm and BJ came up with a better steering geometry setup and took care of that. But overall, I've been happy with my D-series and it's a reliable driver. The AC isn't worth a sh*t, though.

MiniDave

Yes, Don's Pup.....

The wiring on his has mostly worked OK, but I agree with you about the A/C.....

Suspension was not well done, they gave him new upper control arms after both of his bent and broke, and once I got it on the alignment machine and set up properly it drove fine. Took me a while to understand exactly how they had it set up and how to adjust it but eventually I got it sorted.
Complete failure at retirement

1989 Cooper Racing Green
2009 Clubman S
2014 Audi Allroad

BruceK

IMO stock 1275 Mini is the epitome of the old "slow car, driven fast" idea. Not that they are particularly slow, but they aren't really particularly fast either.  But even at just 50 miles an hour in a Mini on a twisty road (which will feel much faster) the driver is very aware of everything that is happening and can feel exactly how the car is responding.   The phrase "go-cart handling" often comes up when talking about a Mini and it is a good comparison. In a go-cart you can be going 20 or 30 miles an hour and, because of the visceral driving experience and immediate feedback, you can feel like you're really flying along. 
1988 Austin Mini
2002 MINI Cooper S
1992 Toyota LiteAce (JDM)
1997 Jeep Wrangler Sahara

scalpel_ninja

Thank you all for your sound advice. I've ruled out doing a VTEC swap for now. Using the old 1275 is on the top of my list but I'm still researching the Pro-Motive option and having a shop put it in.

As for tools, I have a some from building and repairing a few mini bikes powered by Predator engines from Harbor Freight. So I would say I have about 50% or more tools for a car engine but very basic know how. My reservations for doing a full build on my own is the lack of having a concept of how the car should be when complete.

MiniDave

You can buy a complete engine and trans from 7 Ent with everything done, ready to bolt in, or you can send yours to me and I'll do the same for you. Then it's just a matter of bolt it in, wire it up and go!

Of course I'm oversimplifying......anytime you're gonna raise one of these from the dead it's a fairly major project. But the good news is that it's also a great excuse to buy some more tools!   4.gif
Complete failure at retirement

1989 Cooper Racing Green
2009 Clubman S
2014 Audi Allroad

Tagus

This looks like a very nice car. You may want to do a little investigating before you start cutting into it. It looks like a very early car meaning it might be good to keep as original as possible. Maybe sell it for a good buck and buy a newer one for customising? Check out this site:

https://1959miniregister.com/variations-shell/

tsumini

If the BMK badge is still on the firewall of the engine bay it can be dated fairly close.
Front valance not cutout is close to 1960.