I need a ruling from Internet experts

[Jims5543]

Any of those around here?

The local city where 99% of the builder work goes through has suddenly without any notice begun rejecting all surveys that have been electronically signed and sealed.

They keep quoting this line from the Florida Administrative code and I think it is quite clear, an Electronically Signed and Sealed survey is exempt.

The work EXCEPT in this line indicates to me that an electronically signed and sealed survey does not require a raised seal nor ink signature.

The survey map and report and the copies of the survey map and report, except those with electronic signature and electronic seal, must contain a statement indicating that the survey map and report or the copies thereof are not valid without the original signature and seal of a Florida licensed surveyor and mapper.

Am I wrong here? I think they are. they keep saying to me when you print it out it no longer has a verified electronic seal.  Which is true but conflicts with the entire reason you have an electronic signature and seal.

We are now rocking it like it is 1990 all over again, we have stripped the electronic signature and seal and are printing copies and signing them, I have not done this in over 10 years.

Furthermore they are trying to collect a $50 reinspect fee for each one, which I flat out refuse to pay, if they rolled this out, then I would understand, you cannot make up a new rule out of thin air and expect no one to cry foul.

So far they are waving all of the fees.

[Jims5543]

I did some more digging and I think I shot myself down.

5J-17.062 Procedures for Signing and Sealing Electronically Transmitted Surveys or Other Documents.
(1) Information stored in electronic files representing plans, specifications, plats, reports, or other documents which must be sealed under the provisions of chapter 472, F.S., shall be signed, dated and sealed by the professional surveyor and mapper in responsible charge.
(2) A license holder may use a computer generated representation of his or her seal on electronically conveyed work; however, the final hard copy documents of such surveying or mapping work must contain an original signature and seal of the license holder and date or the documents must be accompanied by an electronic signature as described in this section. A scanned image of an original signature shall not be used in lieu of an original signature and seal or electronic signature. Surveying or mapping work that contains a computer generated seal shall be accompanied by the following text or similar wording: "The seal appearing on this document was authorized by [Example: Leslie H. Doe, P.S.M. 0112 on (date)]" unless accompanied by an electronic signature as described in this section.
(3) An electronic signature is a digital authentication process attached to or logically associated with an electronic document and shall carry the same weight, authority, and effect as an original signature and seal. The electronic signature, which can be generated by using either public key infrastructure or signature dynamics technology, must be as follows:
(a) Unique to the person using it;
(b) Capable of verification;
(c) Under the sole control of the person using it;
(d) Linked to a document in such manner that the electronic signature is invalidated if any data in the document are changed.
(4) Alternatively, electronic files may be signed and sealed by creating a "signature" file that contains the surveyor and mapper's name and PSM number, a brief overall description of the surveying and mapping documents, and a list of the electronic files to be sealed. Each file in the list shall be identified by its file name and secure authentication code computed by a cryptographic hash function. A report shall be created that contains the surveyor and mapper's name and PSM number, a brief overall description of the surveyor and mapper documents in question and the secure authentication code of the signature file. This report shall be printed and manually signed, dated, and sealed by the professional surveyor and mapper in responsible charge. The signature file is defined as sealed if its secure authentication code matches the secure authentication code on the printed, manually signed, dated and sealed report. Each electronic file listed in a sealed signature file is defined as sealed if the listed secure authentication code matches the file's computed secure authentication code.

[MiniDave]

I think you found your answer........but it sounds like you and your other surveyor buddies need to get the state to update their procedures.....could be a tough row to hoe. Good luck!

[Jims5543]

I know I pondered this back in 2010 when the economy was shit and I was looking to streamline my process for a time in the future like now, when it would be busy again.


Re-reading the rules, it appears to contradict itself.

i.e. - Item 2 says we need to sign. Then Item 3 says an electronic signature carries the same weight as a hand signed document.

The reasoning of the city is, once it is printed out it is no longer electronically signed. They think it can only exist as an electronically signed survey on the computer screen.  Once printed they require my seal and ink signature.

This means when I am out of town all work going into the city ceases. Even though I reviewed the work on my laptop, electronically singed off on it then emailed it to my receptionist to print out for my customers to use, that is no longer valid.

I have a CE class saved that I was going to take last biennium, I tabled it in favor of some online courses, I am going to try to find some time in the next 2 weeks to revisit it.

I toiled over this years ago and felt I had met all requirements to electronically sign my surveys.  Furthermore, I have jumped through the E-verify hoop just in case. Which is a joke but what the hell, it only costs $60 a year to subscribe to.

I started to fight with the morons at the city that launched this out of no where. Then stopped myself.  No sense arguing with stupid people.






The lead engineer in the engineering department and I have grown to have a huge respect for one another and I would call her a friend now, she bounces questions off of me and I do to her.

She is pissed as hell about this entire deal.

When the City Surveyor was retiring, she urged me to apply for the job opening. I looked her in the eye and told her I would be homicidal working there. I do not suffer fools and lazy people well, the city has those in spades. The pay was decent, I think it started at 80K a year with full benefits and pension plan.  I just cannot see myself ever working for someone ever again.