I'm going down the rabbithole into EFI land......
So far I've ordered the single barrel unit from Holley but don't expect to see it for 2-3 weeks yet, the fuel pump kit has arrived, and I've bought some aluminum plate to make manifold adaptors.
I also ordered and got a new small block header pipe as the old one I have been using is very thin in places and has a few holes in it - I need to make a hole and weld on a bung for the wideband sensor but I don't think the old header will survive that so I bought the new one - however it won't work with the SPi intake manifold, so I put the old header back on - I can always put the wideband in the front pipe of the muffler.
I made two adaptor plates so far, one for the SPi manifold and one that will work with the sidedraft manifold for an HIF carb. I think I'll need to get either the Weber carb intake or one of the Nikki ones to use the new header, and also when I go to the 2bbl EFI unit later on. For now I'm just going to concentrate on these two setups and see if I can get the thing to work.
I'll update here so I don't continue to hijack Coles thread on his supercharged setup. Hope he updates that soon....I'd like to know what he thinks of it so far.
A few more pics....In the first you can see where the heater pipe interferes with the new exhaust manifold, even after I took that pipe out it still hits on the boss, so I had to go back to the old header pipe. The small block headers have the pipe coming straight out of the flange, where the big block headers go downward right off the flange.
Either set of pipes will work with the HIF sidedraft manifold or the Nikki or Weber downdraft styles.
In the last pic I set the SPi on the manifold to see how much room I had to work with - looks like plenty as the Holley unit is smaller than this.
Looking good Dave! I am excited to see how this progresses. If you get to the point of wanting to take a look at the Nikki manifold I could take some measurements or mail it down to you to take a look at. It would be good to know if it would work with Holley since we now have sourcing on 2 LOL. I still kind of want to see if I can find parts for the Nikki carb just for the heck of it but if nothing else at least the manifold may be useful for something else.
I think the Nikki might not interfere with the new header pipe as there is nothing that hangs below like on the SPI. Also what is the small block vs big block header terminology referring to? I am not familiar with this terminology I guess. Also where did you get the header?
I was going through some old threads and saw your engine stand build and now I think I need to make me one of those. I have a few motors I would like to work on one of these days and have an annoying oil leak on the 1275 in my 60 that I want to fix when I tear it down to have it repainted, the engine stand would be a great way to make sure there are no oil leaks prior to reinstalling it. Plus it looks cool!
Small block = 850, 998, 1098
Big block = 1275
The spacing on the cylinder head is the same for either engine size, but you use smaller pipes for small blocks of course.
My dumb little engine stand has been great, I've done so much with it over the years so far.....
Ok I wondered if it had to do with the diameter of the exhaust ports/header diameter. That was the only thing that made sense but I just had never heard it referred to in that manner. 4.gif
If I were to build an engine test bed now I would do it differently than this one, as this is a kind of a PITA to get the motor in and out of, and you can't do it with the current exhaust pipe on it - which is one reason why I wanted to get a different header - this one is welded up from bits, and they were pretty thin when I did it.....the new one is short enough that it will fit into the engine stand while installed on the engine.
Also I think it would be better to have the panel raised up and on one end of the stand rather than where I have it, then I could easily make a cover to protect the wiring......also there really is no practical way to hook up a choke or throttle in this one, so you're having to reach over a hot motor to work those.
I made this one out of scrap metal, not knowing exactly what I wanted, just welded up some bits till it worked. I can do better, and may build a better one at some point in the future.
A few more developments...
A guy sent me a Nikki manifold out of the blue, said he found it on a shelf in his shop! so I now have one to mess around with. I cleaned it up and am making the adaptor plate for it too, but I really need the EFI unit for the next steps.
Holley has sent me notice that my EFI unit will ship on the 15th.
Quote from: MiniDave on August 29, 2020, 06:52:16 AM
A few more pics....In the first you can see where the heater pipe interferes with the new exhaust manifold, even after I took that pipe out it still hits on the boss, so I had to go back to the old header pipe. The small block headers have the pipe coming straight out of the flange, where the big block headers go downward right off the flange.
Either set of pipes will work with the HIF sidedraft manifold or the Nikki or Weber downdraft styles.
In the last pic I set the SPi on the manifold to see how much room I had to work with - looks like plenty as the Holley unit is smaller than this.
The early Cooper small bores used a 3 into 1 header where the center pipe ran straight down giving the clearance needed on the twin SU set up.
Someone is re making that style of header but i can't remember who offhand.
I have an extra SPi/MPi manifold that I got from Dean that I ended up not using. I would assume it would work, but you would need a down pipe for it.
Terry
Thanks! What down pipe is that? Exhaust?
Are the SPi and MPi intake manifolds the same? If not, which one do you have?
Edit: From the pics I saw, SPi and MPi are completely different.....SPi is a downdraft and MPi is a side draft setup with injectors mounted in the manifold right at the head. The SPi works better for what I'm doing as the EFI unit has the injectors mounted in it - it's basically a throttle body injection system.
Sorry I was not clear. I meant the exhaust manifold. They are the same for MPi/SPi I believe.
Also have a used LCB, but shipping would probably be expensive.
Runners on my nikki manifold are 1.35 inches. My 1275 head sitting here on the bench, if you were to port out to the guide rings it would also be 1.35 inches.
Yes, but under the carb the opening is only 1.25, right? So I need clearance for the butterfly to move as it's 1.5" - the 3/8" adaptor plate might mean I don't have to modify the carb side as it should give enough room for it to clear......depending on the cam it can probably use the extra flow from larger runners? Aren't the runners on your steel fabricated intake 1.5"?
1.25x2.8 inches on the manifold mouth. You have .7 inches on all 4 sides to port. Plenty of meat to get it out to 1.5 inches wide. If you ported a bevel to the gasket shown here you'd get 1.65 inches.
Yeah 1.5 on the twin hs4 race manifold. Not ideal really unless you have a 1380 really flowing.
Run this around it and you'd have it set.
Well, I'm thinking use the Nikki manifold on the two bbl EFI unit, the SPi on the single bbl. I know the single is 1.43" diameter, I don't know what the 2bbl is - it may be the same or smaller. I'm a ways away from getting one of those - I want to see how the single works first, and it may wind up on an upcoming 998 I have to build.
If it works well on the 998, then I'll sell it and order the 2bbl unit to try on a 1275-1340 motor....when I order the 2bbl I'm going to get the one that has the software for boost too. It's only about $100 more.....and if I wind up building a supercharged or turbo'd motor I'll have the right unit for that.
Looking at the base for the 2bbl EFI, the bolt spacing almost matches the Nikki studs, so it's possible that with a little opening up of that bore I could bolt it right on leaving room on top for the turbo plenum......that could make for an easy installation. An EFI unit set up for boost will be a much easier turbo installation than a carb.....plus so much easier to set the air fuel ratio under all conditions.
This is why I'm using adaptor plates for now, for the cost of a couple of aluminum plates I can try out the single bbl unit on all sorts of manifolds to find the best way to orient it and to see if it will work sideways as well as downdraft. It's all just an experiment for now.....
Let's see......rebuild motor parts and machine work, $2500-3K, turbo 2K, EFi 1500, 5 speed gearbox 3K......wow, I coulda hada Vtec! 77.gif
A big shout out to Michael Playle for contributing to the EFI research fund! Thank you Michael... 77.gif
You are welcome!
I guess Dave is carrying the banner for the Sniper EFI...
https://youtu.be/gVcYXjP0QJM (https://youtu.be/gVcYXjP0QJM)
Yeah, I don't know why Cole had so much trouble with his unit, I've talked to a couple of guys who have these on Chevy V-8's and they work perfectly right out of the box - there is some setup of course, but we'll see once I get the unit I've ordered. It might be easier for me too because I don't have the supercharger to mess with and I'm working in an engine stand.
If I get it to start and run and get thru a basic map, then I'll need to mount it to a car and drive it and go from there.
I drove my Racing Green car today and I have to say, it's running better than ever - so it has to be about ready to blow up! ::)
If my son had the money and interest I would talk him into putting one in his 327 El Camino.
But I must admit the thing I like best about the EFI components in the Minis is the distributorless ignition. No mechanical issues of a distributor or physical adjustment issues to deal with.
The Holley unit will handle ignition advance too, but you do still need a distributor - at least you can get rid of vacuum and mechanical advances if you want.
I think the ignition advance feature of the Holley EFI is for use with coil packs rather than a distributor.
The MPI Minis used a coil pack arrangement, the SPI used an electronic distributor.
I read thru the instructions fairly carefully, I think it's the opposite of what you posted.
Quote from: MiniDave on September 25, 2020, 02:02:33 PM
I read thru the instructions fairly carefully, I think it's the opposite of what you posted.
And I immediately think of The Princess Bride.
Inconceivable! :D
Today's update: Cole and I made a deal and I bought his EFI unit, it arrived today. Looking only at the baseplate it's pretty big. I know they make a smaller 2bbl EFI unit too - I may order one of those at some point but not till I get the single bbl one I ordered over a month ago!
So, now I have something to work with while I wait for the other one to get here....I think this one from Cole is too big for these little motors unless you're using forced induction - might be just perfect for a turbo tho!
The pic shows the baseplate for the EFI setup I got from Cole on top of the Nikki manifold - I think you all can see the problem! :-\
The EFI that I bought from Cole - while it might work fine on a supercharged or turbo car - it's way too big for normally aspirated engines like I'm working on. I think the single bbl unit I have will be far better suited to what I'm doing. So at some point I'll be selling it on to someone with a more suitable application.
In the meantime while waiting for my single bbl unit to show up, I went ahead and ordered a Weber 2bbl downdraft manifold from Pierce (thanks to a donation from MPlayle) and it came in today. It was interesting to compare it to the Nikki manifold, which on first glance seems much smaller than the Weber - BUT - when you look at all the openings it's pretty much the same in a smaller package. The Weber is more open in the area just below the carb and of course, it situates the carb 90* to the way Nikki does it.
However.....try as I might - it does not fit with either of the header setups I have - hits on the center pipe much like the SPi manifold did on the small header. So, the only other possibility to use this is to use it with an SPi exhaust header. If anyone has one they'd like to donate to the cause....lemme know.
Compare the Weber to the Nikki in the last pics, the Nikki has all sorts of clearance....I'm thinking that the way they oriented the carb is the problem on the Weber. Also, because it hits the pipe I can't even get the Weber manifold to sit square to the head.....I guess the next move is to see if the Nikki will clear with the smaller header too.
The Nikki manifold works perfectly with either header, so that's clearly the best one to use, either with the single bbl EFI unit or the small 2bbl.
I set the big 2bbl EFI unit on the Weber manifold and I think I could make an adaptor plate that would work, but the throttle bores are 1 3/4" each, - that's like having 2 HIF44's on a 1275 motor - way too much. I think it would be too much even with a supercharger and I wonder if that's why Cole couldn't get it to work right?
At any rate, I'm not going to try and use the big unit....but I think I might go ahead and buy the small 2bbl unit and try it out on my green 1275. Actually, once I get it set up , I can easily switch between the single and 2bbl units to compare performance. I don't have a way to compare actual performance numbers other than my finely tuned butt dyno... ::) ;D
I am a bit surprised the Pierce manifold does not fit properly. I had a Mini I removed such a manifold and early version of the Weber 32/36 DGV from and it fit. The Weber had not been rejetted and was WAY too rich for the 1275 Mini I had at that time, so I reverted to a HIF44 carb without changes in the exhaust header. I will admit to not knowing what exhaust header came on that car.
I wonder if the base of the Pierce manifold is thick enough to permit grinding a relief into it to allow for clearance?
I looked at that, I don't think so - the metal is not thick in that area as it's not structural. It would need about a half inch cut off of it. I was surprised too, to say the least! 8.gif
I'm also going to look at using the original combination intake/exhaust manifold to see if I can adapt the single bbl unit to work side draft.
I'm also going to contact Pierce to see what they say, and to see about returning it.
Or.. I have either an LCB or an MPi/SPi exhaust manifold. I will split shipping with you, but it will be at least $75.
Unless I can get the SPi/MPi exhaust in a large flat rate box.
Don't know for sure either will work, but they should.
Terry
I forgot you would still need a down pipe for the SPi/MPi manifold.
Post a pic of the exhaust manifold, OK? I'd like to see what it looks like....
This is the one I got from Dean. It did not work on his setup
I see what you mean about the down pipe - what is the round hole for?
I think I'll just concentrate on using either the Nikki for a downdraft setup or do a sidedraft if I can.....sidedraft manifolds from MIniSpares are inexpensive and work with any header.
I wish the damn unit would get here so I could start figuring this stuff out!
Or an LCB with Y
The hole on the cast manifold is for the lambda sensor
The LCB has two, one for the inners and one for the outers. I could never get it to work well with the Innovate meter in two channel configuration.
I've got the twin pipe LCB and a single pipe as well, the single is for small block engines.....neither works with the Weber manifold.
There are some idiosyncrasies with some of the Mini components as I could swear someone I knew had that manifold with the long center branch.
I thought maybe the 3 into 1 had the center branch come out at a different angle.
Yeah, I don't understand it either, but the Weber is going back to Pierce.
The Nikki is by far the best all around fit and function, so that's what I will use for the 2bbl setup, I may try and use the original side draft manifold setup for the single bbl on the small motors. I still haven't gotten the 1bbl EFI unit, but I did receive the 2bbl unit and I've been working on figuring out how to fit it to the Mini engines. I will do initial setup on the 1098 in the engine stand, but I plan to use my 1275 in my Green Mini as my test mule once I get it all figured out.
I drilled and tapped a plate to put the temp sensor in the back of the head where the heater tap would normally be - just for test purposes on the test bed engine. I think if I install this on the green Mini I'll bore and tap a hole right into the end of the cylinder head - if I wind up not using it on that car permanently I can always just plug it as it's a simple 3/8 pipe thread.
The 2bbl unit is almost a direct bolt onto the Nikki manifold, I will have to open up the throat of the manifold to match the throttle bores - I'm undecided whether to use a phenolic spacer under the EFI unit - but I have some material coming in case. And I will need to slightly modify the stud holes to match the Nikki stud pattern, but it won't take much.
I also ordered a 6" pancake air filter to fit the 2bbl EFI unit, no idea yet what the smaller 1bbl will need. Delivery on that has been pushed back to the middle of the month - I'll believe it when I see it - or when they charge my credit card I guess!
I had hoped to set up the 2bbl unit with the accelerator linkage on the left, but it does not fit there, so I'll need a longer acc cable when I mount it on the green Mini. I'll also have to pull the fuel tank to install the return line bulkhead bung. You can see in the pic the fuel pressure regulator sticks out too far and will hit the valve cover.
I ordered a bunch of O2 sensor bungs to weld into the pipes - I'll need one for the header in the test stand and for the green car - then If I build one of these for a customer I'll need it for them too - so it'll be good to have some spares on hand - I found them 5 for $20 including the plug....shipped.
Almost a perfect fit on that nikki manifold. I wonder if a machinist would be able to affordably move the studs to align with the gasket.
I think you'd have to weld them up and re-drill and tap......seems easier to simply open up the stud holes a little bit.
Seeing the two manifolds in the same picture makes me think the older Weber manifolds I was familiar with were shaped more like the Nikki manifold - straight tubes and higher center chamber.
The new Pierce has the drops in the tubes and such a large center chamber. Since it is listed on the Pierce site as for Midget and Mini, I would about the differences in the headers for Midgets that may be the reason for the drops making the center chamber hit the center branch of Mini headers.
Wish I knew someone with a wet blast cabinet with glass beads, that would clean up the Nikki and make it look new. Maybe I'll try my walnut shell setup and see how it does.....
Michael, you may be right - I seem to remember the Sprite header center pipe going off at an angle to the rear instead of straight down as a Mini does, maybe that's why it will clear the center pipe on them?
I have actually contemplated building a wet blast cabinet and even have a plan together to do it, but that's as far as I have gotten so far.
Walnut shells will probably not make it "look new" as they are not aggressive enough. Glass beads (not the crushed glass) dry do work well to get a nice even finish on aluminum but it will be a matt finish which is what I prefer on the motorcycle parts that I have used it on. I have heard that you can polish it up if your so inclined to get a more polished look but have never tried it so not real sure on that.
The usual place I get my glass bead media has been out for months now, no idea why.
I've used glass bead dry and it leaves a fine finish, much nicer than sand for instance, but there's a guy on one of the forums (Garage Journal) that's built his own wet blaster, and with glass beads it not only leaves a clean finish, it's also a lot brighter than with dry blasting - parts really come out looking fresh and new. The media seems to last a lot longer too.
Of course, after a years use they look like this again! ::) ;D
Well, looks like the rest of my project is finally getting into gear, as I've had an email that the single bbl unit has shipped at last. Tune in next week for some pictures!
Also got the weldable bungs for the O2 sensors, and an air filter assembly is also due today - I don't know if it will fit the single bbl unit yet, but I think it does.
Things are moving ahead.....I sent the Nikki manifold off to the machine shop - we've decided moving the studs is a better solution than modifying the EFI unit, so he'll do that and match the bore to the throttle size, He's also machining me a couple of phenolic spacers so I can get clearance for the throttle linkage and add some insulation between the heat of the manifold and the EFI unit - I don't know if that's really necessary but I do need the clearance for the linkage.
I got the O2 sensor bungs to weld in, I decided to weld one into the front pipe on the muffler - I use this muffler with all the different headers so that way I don't have any clearance problems and I only need to weld in one bung for now.
Seems like I spend a lot of time waiting for this project to get going but it's slowly coming together.
Sounds like it's starting to move along pretty well now though.
Yep, the single EFI unit arrived today so now I'm looking at how to mount it to the various manifolds - I'll have to do some modifying of the intermediate plates and I'll have to make a few gaskets too.....I'll need a couple of allen capscrews to attach them for clearance issues. Lots to do but I should have everything I need now to make it run. I also need to find an air filter that will fit that small neck.
Looks like I'll need to make some more modifications to the SPi manifold to make it work, and make an additional 1/4" spacer plate for throttle linkage clearance.
I'll also have the modified Nikki manifold ready to accept the 2bbl unit in a few days as he's working on it today, he'll be back down in KC tomorrow so I'm hopeful he'll be bringing it with him. He's picking up a Caterham he bought from another friend of mine here in town. He's been wanting to buy a Lotus 7 for quite a while now, so I'm glad he finally got one.
Over the last few days I cut the adaptor plate out for the single bbl EFI unit to fit the Nikki manifold. I sent the manifold off to a machinist friend who reset the mounting studs to fit the 2bbl EFI unit so I had to modify the mounting holes I'd already drilled to fit the original Nikki spacing to fit the single bbl unit to the manifold. My plan is to run the single on the test stand first to figure out how to make it all work, then put the 2 bbl unit on my 1275 motor in my Racing Green car to see how it all works in an actual car, since I can't put any load on the motor in the engine stand so the unit can "learn" a run map.
So I now have both the single and 2 bbl units fit to the manifold so I can switch them out easily. My machinist buddy also has the maps saved in his mill so he can cut spacer plates out of aluminum or phenolic material for me, as well as convert the manifold stud spacing easily. He also matched the opening in the Nikki to the bores of the 2bbl.
All of this is just preliminary to actually fitting it to an engine and a car. An SPi manifold can be made to work with a little bit of surgery here and there, but the Nikki is even easier and it fits better. I was able to lop off a water jacket boss on the bottom of the SPi manifold and now it will work with either exhaust header too.
So, single bbl units for the small engines - 998 and 1098, 2 bbl unit for the "big" motors is the plan - Holley says the single can support up to 200 hp but I dunno, it doesn't seem like it could flow enough to really build some HP in a 1275 or 1380 motor with a nicely flowed cylinder head.
My buddy forgot to cut the phenolic spacer for the 2bbl unit - it's only needed to provide clearance for some of the linkage and other bits - who knows maybe it's a good idea to have it for heat insulation too? If so, i can make one for the single bbl version too, there's plenty of room between the top to add an air cleaner too so, another 1/4 or 3/8" of height won't matter.
At this point both projects are on hold for a while. I have a car coming in the shop the 26th for a suspension overhaul and an engine being delivered around Nov 1 that will need to be torn down and parts sent off to the machine shop, and I'm back working on the Inno to get it up and running. I'm down to a short amount of time before I'm laid up in January with my knee replacement. I'm still only able to work a little here and there, but I'm determined to get these projects finished.
The EFI project will have to wait.
Linkage on the single bbl is going to be interesting, and I may have to build some brackets and such to get it to work - no real idea how to do that yet, I tried the single bbl on both ways as it will fit either direction and it looks like having the linkage off the back of the manifold will work the best but I won't know for sure till I try it in a car - and right vs left drive may make a difference too. The 2bbl unit will only fit one way, so I'll just have to engineer for that mounting position. I'm excited to see it run and work, but I have to finish the other commitments I made first.
For keeping with that orientation, we'll need to either find a supply of the Nikki manifolds or find someone to duplicate them.
Do you have a regular SU/HIF manifold to try for the other orientation?
How are each of the units on the Nikki manifold for having bonnet clearance with an air filter attached?
Bonnet clearance with the Nikki should be fine with either single or 2 bbl. won't know for absolute sure till I try it, but based on the height compared to the normal SU, shouldn't be an issue.
I have SU manifolds and will try the side draft orientation too at some point. I also have made up an adaptor to mount the single bbl to a standard 998 cast intake/exhaust manifold to see if I can make that work too, but the two bbl won't work with any side draft manifolds that I know of....short of welding something up .....and I'm not going there as long as there are other choices.
The 2bbl won't work with an SPi manifold either....so it's really down to the Nikki for them right now.
The weber manifold would have needed an adaptor to make it work with either unit, but I played with it again and I still can't make it work with either header, so unless someone needs it for a Sprite, it's going back.
It's too bad with all this covid non-sense. Sounds like a great time for a "garage day" or 2 to smash out some work on things before you have to go down for a while. I'd love to learn more about the engine/trans building process, which I can obviously do on my own, but it's a whole lot more fun learning from someone with a lot more knowledge and the learning curve moves a lot faster.
Maybe things will get back to some sort of "normal" one of these days LOL.