Hello folks,
First post here. I am a transplant from the minimania forum. I really enjoy working on, learning about, and talking about my 1972 mini. What I didn't like is the absurdity that the minimania forum has become. I'm sure there are a few present here that can verify.
As stated, I have a 1972 mini 850cc that is bone stock. I bought it in England in 2008 and brought it back with me. It was in Vegas until 2011 and then brought it over to Denver, Colorado. It ran like a top in England, like a top in Vegas, and ran like a top over here until one odd day it just started sputtering. The symptoms have been consistent and irritating.
The Symptoms:
The car will start just fine, warm up just fine and drive just fine until it simply begins to sputter and then dies. Sometimes I can catch it, push in the clutch and keep the revs up to "clear it out." It will run ok for a few moments and then starts all over.
What I've done:
Flushed the fuel system, rebuilt the carb, replaced the points, new fuel pump, checked the float boat level. Good oil pressure. I have felt the coil when this happens and it is not hot to the touch.
I have disconnected the fuel line at the carb and cranked the engine, good fuel flow. Has an inline fuel filter right before the pump.
I really think it's a fuel issue, but I am at odds what it can be. The carb is getting fuel. I have not really done anything with the ignition except check the coil and replace the points.
I'm out of ideas.
Darin
Glad you found your way over 4.gif
Engine ground wire clean? Replaced the fuel filter? Condenser?
Which carb does it have?
I second the notion of the condensor, and for not much money I'd change the coil too - I know a number of people who cured poor running with a new coil.
I'm sure you've also checked your valve clearances and double checked compression?
Always start with the basics first when troubleshooting - valve clearance, compression, then spark and then fuel.
I've found a lot of engine issues that turned out to be compression related - valves tight, burned and so on. None of the fuel or spark adjustments will fix a poor compression reading!
Report back with your results and we'll help you winnow it down.
I will check the ground wire. Fuel filter is new.
I have a spare coil, I will throw it on and see if it works. May have a spare condenser paying around. If not:
http://www.minimania.com/part/C1-DCB101/Condenser-23d---25d-Pre74mini-Sprite--Midget Correct one?
Haven't done anything with the valves or compression. Is the Haynes manual correct when it comes to valve clearances?
Oh has the standard 850 carb. Can't remember the type. HS2 I believe.
My old 62 Cooper S used to run like shite when warm when the points closed up - I know you said you installed new points so I assume you're comfortable that you have them gapped correctly?
I know my distributor problem that was intermittent caused me to convert to an electronic unit.
I would second the condensor.
Regards
Joe 77.gif
It may also be altitude related. I forget which way the altitude changes the fuel mixture. I think it is the higher altitude causes the carb to run rich due to less air density. Does pulling out the choke make it worse or better? Worse, would fit with the carb running rich. Better would be carb running leaner. From there I would try adjusting your carb appropriately. You may also have to take the dashpot off and see what needle you currently have and use some of the online resources to find the next one richer or leaner.
The fuel would be richer at altitude. I wouldn't think more than a turn or two on the carb to make up the difference but certainly a possibility as well.
Quote from: MPlayle on September 21, 2015, 03:58:34 PM
It may also be altitude related. I forget which way the altitude changes the fuel mixture. I think it is the higher altitude causes the carb to run rich due to less air density. Does pulling out the choke make it worse or better? Worse, would fit with the carb running rich. Better would be carb running leaner. From there I would try adjusting your carb appropriately. You may also have to take the dashpot off and see what needle you currently have and use some of the online resources to find the next one richer or leaner.
I have seen high altitude mini owners with the same problems I'm having. We will lean it all the way out and the engine will still increase RPM when the piston is pushed up, indicating it is still rich. Pulling the choke when it's warm makes it worse. A few folks are saying condenser. Maybe I've misdiagnosed it as a fuel issue.
I'm going to open the dizzy back up, change condenser, recheck gap, and change out the coil.
After re-reading your description it does not sound like a fuel problem to me....I think you're on the right path....don't forget to check your timing after re-gapping the points.
After you get the electrical all sorted, then go to tuning the carb last. If you can't get it lean enough you may need a different needle. SU has charts online that will guide you in the selection, and 7 Ent and MM both have a selection of needles you can buy. Also, while you have it apart, make sure the piston slides smoothly in the bore of the dome....temp changes can cause a piston to stick if there's dirt inside the dome....then it will not run right.
You DID set your valve clearances and checked compression - right?
Haven't done anything to the valves or compression. I do have a Haynes manual. Are the clearances in the manual correct?
I didn't have a condenser so it's in the mail. I went ahead and got a low tension lead as well. Will be a few days before I can get them replaced.
What is 7 Ent?
7ent.com sells parts. State side I use gbcarparts or 7ent.
http://www.7ent.com/ (http://www.7ent.com/)
Some of us have the needle books and application data from Berlen Fuel Systems; let me put my reading glasses on...
1972 850cc Hmmmm... I'll take a guess that you've got a fixed needle HS2 carb, so the 'EB' needle is std., 'M' will be your rich needle, and 'GG' will be your lean needle.
Hey John, could you look up one for me too?
Sea level, 1275 bored 60 over, std compression, mild cam, LCB header and running an HIF44.
Sorry Dave, wish I could help, it's hardly stock, therefore not in Berlen's little blue book.
Not in Vizard's recommendations in HTMYM or TBLASE either, sure wish my WinSU worked with the newer versions of Windows. I'm sure you could find it, though, on TMF or the old 'Ask Doddy' board.
Hi Mini Dave,
I would try AC Dodd . Give him all your info on engine ,carb and cam. He did a grest job on needle profile for my engine.
http://www.minifinity.com/forum/index.php?sid=66902e602353aad4fee9ceae1747c29c
Regards
Joe 77.gif
AKA towjoe
Wow, GG needle is scarce. Would like to try it though.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-1-8-1-125-H1-SU-CARB-CARBURETTOR-NEEDLE-GG-MORRIS-MINOR-SERIES-2-803-cc-NEW-/201424846534?hash=item2ee5db3ec6
Correct?
7Ent lists a GG, you might call them....
MiniMania also has them....
Quote from: towjoe on September 22, 2015, 01:28:21 PM
Hi Mini Dave,
I would try AC Dodd . Give him all your info on engine ,carb and cam. He did a grest job on needle profile for my engine.
http://www.minifinity.com/forum/index.php?sid=66902e602353aad4fee9ceae1747c29c
Regards
Joe 77.gif
AKA towjoe
Thanks Joe, I have to join up to ask him anything.....
MM says out of stock.
I can't find it on 7ent.
Was that the correct needle on ebay?
GG = p/n AUD1211
AUD 1211
http://www.minispares.com/image.axd?type=product&picture=350/AUD1211.jpg
Regards
Joe
or http://www.minispares.com/product/Classic/Fuel/Carburetors/Needles/AUD1211.aspx?130206&ReturnUrl=/search/classic/aud 1211.aspx|Back to search (http://www.minispares.com/product/Classic/Fuel/Carburetors/Needles/AUD1211.aspx?130206&ReturnUrl=/search/classic/aud%201211.aspx%7CBack%20to%20search)
Checking valves and doing a compression test, decided to change spark plugs while I'm at it. Taking off NGK BP6ES and noticed I only have BP7ES to replace. I just read that the higher number on the NGKs represent a colder plug, and that's ok. Just confirming.
Well, setting valve clearances and am having troubles. Out of the 8 valves, one adjusting screw spins freely. I managed to snap off one with apparently my super human strength. Any suggestions on why these screws will not turn? Oh, and what to do with this one.
Did you loosen the nuts below the screws? You can replace the adjusters.
I always wandered why allen heads were not used. I guess $$$.
Regards
Joe 77.gif
They should turn freely if you loosened the nuts first. Sometimes one will get stuck but if you work it back and forth with a little spray penetrating oil on it, it should come loose. You could remove that end rocker arm easily enough by taking off the cotter pin on the end of the rocker shaft and sliding it off. Then once on the bench remove the nut and use a pliers or something to carefully work it back and forth till it's loose again. You can still use it till you can order a new one (or several so you have spares next time) once it moves freely you can simply turn it with a pliers till you get the adjustment right, then lock it down with the lock nut.
7Enterprises is not too far from you since you're in Colorado, they'll have the new rocker screw adjusters.....but I wouldn't be surprised if someone local doesn't have some old ones lying around too, I know I do.
Another place you can get those is Victoria British here in KC.....same as a Sprite.
Vicky Brits part # 12-4316, $1.45 ea (800) 255-0088
7 ent part #12H3376 $3.99ea (800) 992-7007
However once you remove the rocker arm you might find wear on the shaft, which means you really should replace the arms and shaft.....
Heat, hammering, penetrating oil......they are not budging.
On MM I'm seeing:
http://www.minimania.com/part/12A1215/Rocker-Adjuster-Screw-Small-For-Orig-Pressed-Steel--Sprite--Mg-Midget--Mini
and
http://www.minimania.com/part/AEG167/Rocker-Adjuster-Screw-For-Forged-Type--Sprite--Mg-Midget--Mini--Morris
I think I have the pressed steel rocker so I need the first screw, or am I wrong?
Also, this is my first time doing anything valve train related. I read the Haynes and I don't know what the rocker retainer screw is, nor does it describe it. The dark blue on says the cylinder head must be removed, the light blue one says nothing about it. Can I just take the cotter pin out on the thermostat side of the engine and pull the shaft through?
Wow, it really sounds like you're having trouble, and with so much to read, I thought I'd just post what I do. It almost seems as though you're battling the valve spring - that is to say that the rocker isn't rocking prior to your trying to loosen the adjuster. Remember, number 1 is closest to the radiator, number 8 is closest to the clutch.
Here's what I do:
1. Remove the spark plugs
2. Remove the distributor cap
3. Remove the valve cover
4. Lift one front wheel off of the ground (emergency brake on)
5. Put the engine in 3rd gear
6. Rotate the tire as if the car is rolling forward - you'll see the valves opening and closing, as well as the distributor rotor turning counter-clockwise.
7. This is the tricky bit - find Top Dead Center (commonly known as TDC). Continue to turn the tire until the rockers over cylinder number 4 are loose (rocking in free air) and the distributor rotor is pointing at the number one cylinder. You'll see that the marker on the crankshaft pulley (if it has one) or the marker on the flywheel (visible through the little cover on the 'wok' clutch cover) lines up with the pointer above the pulley (on the timing chain cover, again, if it has one.) or moulded inside the peephole in the 'wok'.
8. Now rotate the engine 360 degrees and align the timing marks the same way, this time with the rockers on number 1 cylinder rocking in free air.
8. Have a sip of beer...
9. Adjust the valves, using the rule of 9 (when valve number 2 is fully pushed down, adjust number 7 (2+7=9))
Adjust them sequentially, and try not to rotate the engine backwards.
The images are from an old factory manual, don't worry about them - I suspect you'll only need the 3rd image which is to adjust the valves.
Edit: Was just thinking bout this - no need to find TDC after all, just follow the 'Rule of 9' -
And, how did the BP6ES sparkplugs look? They've a wide temperature range, so I'd replace with the same.
Check out this .pdf from NGK classic vehicle catalogue - it lists the BP6ES for the 0.8L Austin mini. A good download for the PC...
http://www.ngkpartfinder.co.uk/files/NGK_Classic_Vehicles.pdf (http://www.ngkpartfinder.co.uk/files/NGK_Classic_Vehicles.pdf)
You do have the pressed steel rockers, so you need the small screws.
You cannot just pull the shaft out, there will probably be just enough misalignment of the rocker towers that some would bind, plus some of the valves will be open, putting pressure on those rockers. You might be able to get that end one off by simply removing the cotter pin and sliding it off, but not the rest.
Some of the bolts that hold the rocker assembly are head bolts, I don't know if you can successfully remove those without disturbing the head gasket, but I think I'd take the chance. Once you get the rocker assembly off you can take the cotter pin off the end and slide the shaft out. Some have a retaining bolt that locks the shaft into the correct position so that the internal oil holes will line up right - be sure to put it back exactly the same way. (In the pic below, the retaining bolt is in the center of the 2nd left tower) When you remove the rocker arms there is a sequence to the various parts, lay them out in order and put them back exactly the same way. Take many pictures along the way to help your memory.
When you reinstall the assembly be sure to torque those head bolts to the right torque setting....all the headbolts, not just the ones you removed
I have a set of used pressed steel rockers I'll sell you pretty cheaply - you can use them as is or just take the adjusting screws out and use them if your rockers are in better shape than these. I replaced mine with forged rockers.
Are you using enough heat? Getting them cherry red?
Victoria British only charges $12 ea for the forged rockers with adjuster screws and bushings, if you go that route buy a new shaft (also $12) and you will have to have the bushings reamed to fit the shaft, but I don't think that will cost more than about $20.
Or buy my used ones and replace as many or few as you need and keep everything the same.
John-Yes, yes I am having troubles. All of this because I wanted to check my valves. I may just adjust the ones I have loosened, they are not that far off from 0.012. This has turned into a nightmare. I have no problems doing the task, and was good up to the point of adjusting the screws. Thanks for the info on the spark plugs!!!
Dave - To clarify, what are the small screws? Let me guess! The expensive ones? I don't have a torch so wasn't able to get them that hot. In your experience, is that the difference maker?
I may just adjust the ones I have been able to loosen and call it done. However, I want to open it back up next spring and do it again fully. How much for your rocker assembly shipped to 80015?
So.......
Changed condenser, low tension lead, and spark plugs. Still waiting on the GG needle from 7ent. Fired it up and now it requires healthy choke and will not idle. Set a high idle and took it out. Produces hardly any power. Had to use first gear to get up a mild incline. Looks like I have some adjusting on the carb to do. Will do than when the needle is in.
It didn't stumble though....well, except when the RPMs got too low. #funtimeswithbritishclassics
Could that be related to your valve adjustment woes?
I don't think so. The engine mechanically sounds fine. It just runs very rough.
Just an update.
Sat down with it and did some serious carb adjustments. Got it to run good with the air cleaner off, but as soon as I put it on, it dies. Does anyone have experience with the K&N? I need more air to it. This altitude does not do it any favors.
On a side note, I drove it all over town today. I drove it more than I have in the last 2.5 years. Did not stumble. It just might have been that condenser. I changed the low tension lead and spark plugs as well. I forgot what a great little car it is. And thumbs up everywhere.
Have you cleaned the filter lately? Soapy water and let it dry thoroughly before you lightly re-oil it.
Nope, I will do that. It would need to make a BIG difference. It chokes it a lot.
Stock filter box?
Yes.
Depending on your box I might have a brand new filter...well barely used for 100 miles.
I've used the "stock replacement" K&N filter in the round plastic stock filter box when I was living in Fort Collins, Colorado.
I also did the modification to the box as recommended by Calver: drill about 6 holes (about 3/4" diameter) along the bottom of the front edge of the box outside the actual filter to draw additional fresh air from above the manifold (gets slightly heated by the manifold). These holes provide as much air volume in as the single large stock opening. Thus you are allowing more air flow to reach the filter. The K&N filter also flows more air than a stock paper element.
This helped the Mini I had at the time run much better in the local altitudes.
Thanks 94-I have a new filter, I just wanted to see if anyone had experience with K&Ns.
I will look for a junk box to drill into. Mines the original box, and that just doesn't seem right.
I may have a spare box I can sell you pretty cheaply, post up a pic of yours with basic dimensions and I'll compare it to mine.