Have a guy in Tulsa who contacted me to go inspect 3 minis just down the road from me. Sent me pics and I need some help figuring this one out. I'll get a better idea once I see it if it's something I snag. I'm thinking it's an innocenti but does it all match up? Note the rear boot lid, twin tanks, later model lights, internal hinge doors, doors have winders plus a vent, then the inno turn lamps. Ideas?
External clues definitely suggest it is either an Inno or an Authi. Leaning more toward it being an Inno.
An interior shot of the dash and door cards would also be a good clue.
Did innos have twin tanks?
I don't recall for certain. I think some may have had twin tanks, though a quick image search seems to indicate the later 1300 Export series did not. The boot lid and side marker lights are very definitely Inno. The Innos were also some of the first to get the tri-color tail lights.
Did some more image searching and not finding much to support the right hand tank aspect. Definitely confirmed the boot lid is the Inno style.
Also found several pictures of Innos in the beige with black roof color scheme.
Post some details when you get them.
Someone could have added the right tank? Should be able to tell from the internal lines and such, if they look factory or add-on
The headlight rings are wrong for an Inno, but they could have been replaced. The front repeater light placement, closer to the front of the car, is correct for an Inno.
Looks like roll up windows with quarter light vent windows- very much an Inno thing
Some pics.
Everything, doors, dash, etc points to Inno. But I don't think they have made RHD cars. Converted?
Dave and I may convert it back. ;D
I agree with Bruce - definitely an Inno from the doors, dash, etc.
The steering wheel is unusual even for an Inno.
That is a neat looking steering wheel.
Abarth steering wheel, rare I'm sure. Missing the center horn button or emblem.
I was surprised to see RHD also, but the instruments are Italian, Benzina, Olio etc.....
Yes it's a mirror image of the typical LHD Inno dash. But it looks factory.
Just noticed. Look at the gap between the brake pedal and the gas pedal. Holy size 13EEE Batman!
Actually, the dash is the same as the LHD Inno dash. It is not mirrored. The full 6-gauge Inno dash had 4 small gauges in front of the driver, the tach and speedo in the center and one gauge to the right. This dash matches that layout.
It may have been converted to RHD for import into the UK and resided there for a while before making its way to the US?
I've seen pictures of a few Innos converted to RHD and they all left the dash as original which put most of the gauges offset to the left as in this one.
Curious, did Innos have Benditalia servos instead of Lockheed? And Dan, are those big fat HS4 carbs? Cool car.
Quote from: MPlayle on October 19, 2018, 02:57:57 PM
Actually, the dash is the same as the LHD Inno dash. It is not mirrored. The full 6-gauge Inno dash had 4 small gauges in front of the driver, the tach and speedo in the center and one gauge to the right. This dash matches that layout.
It may have been converted to RHD for import into the UK and resided there for a while before making its way to the US?
I've seen pictures of a few Innos converted to RHD and they all left the dash as original which put most of the gauges offset to the left as in this one.
Okay. I was wrong about the mirrored part but right about the factory part! ;D
Her Majesty's Government says that reg number belongs to a 1980 Leyland unknown. Which kind of makes sense because it's not an Austin or a Morris. So there might of been some difficulty registering an Innocenti so it just got listed as a Leyland.
Looks like an Inno....I didn't think they made RHD cars though.
Post a pic of the inside of the boot lid. They had an inside panel on their bootlid.
I agree the headlight rings look thin. The Inno's generally were all quite a bit wider.
I have some old old Inno pix around here somewhere, but I've never been an expert.
I do admire them though.
I think original Inno's had Veglia gauges too, not SMITH's.
Looking fwd 2 more pix.
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Quote from: Willie_B on October 19, 2018, 01:42:15 PM
That is a neat looking steering wheel.
Looks like the original is on the passenger side floor.
I'm pretty confident that it was converted to RHD, and that's why the acc pedal looks so weird, I'm betting it's the LHD one just moved over.
We believe it's a 1300 export, basically the cooper s of Italy. They were all lhd so it's been converted, but hopefully looking at the pedals all the gear is still there. From reading online and poking over the car yesterday the only other thing missing is the inno grill and perhaps the head light bezels. Otherwise it seems to be untampered with and the body while filthy in the pics is in excellent shape. I didn't notice any body work. No noticeable dents, scratches and looks to be original paint. Found one small rust bubble low on one door. Paint was bubbling below the right tank in the boot where fuel had spilled. This and 2 other minis were stuffed in a barn about 5 miles from my house. It was hard to get pics because of how cramped and dark it was in there, but I'll get more soon.
Dan,
If it's not rotted out and the (unique)gauges/wiring is OK and the very thin plastic gauge-surround isn't all cracked to bits, it's certainly worth saving or buying.
There was a 71(?) up here in NB that I tried for about a decade to buy which needed a full resto, but the guy basically just let it sink into the ground as Mother Nature reclaimed it. One of those "I'll get around tuit"things. Lotsa really neat features on the Inno.
Even though it *MAY* say 1300 on the boot badge, it may be a 998 (the one up here was). A popular 'mod' back in the day to Cooperize your Mini. (I didn't study your picture, as it's upside and hurt my neck to look at it, LOL)
Is the inside of the bootlid double skinned? ie: has a pleated panel on it?
Somewhere I have pix of an old Inno up by me, original a 1300 export, but pretty sure it had a 998 in it.
It's a 1275 and fairly certain I counted 11 studs on the head.
And yes double skinned boot lid.
Right on. It's gottabe an Inno. (or someone went to heaps of trouble putting all Inno parts on it.
How much ? (finger hovering over the PAYPAL button)
LOL! 71.gif
Assuming all original and cleans up to perfection and is road worthy...any guesses what it will bring on BAT?
My guess: Presented correctly, and in good condition, I would say mid-teens to $20K. There will be some who will complain it's not a real Cooper but of course it is (assuming it really is what the badge says). And that's after conversion to LHD. The more closely it retains all its unique Inno goodness the better - that's what really makes it special.
And I would say there's no reason to ever volunteer the unnecessary information that it lived in the UK for a while.
Pretty cool to find 3 hidden Minis right by your house. Obviously you're focusing on one car, but tell us about the other ones when you get a chance.
Finding little blurbs of info:
All Innocenti's were equipped with Cooper S brakes and a choice of 998cc or 1275cc engines. This car in original trim had a 1275CC Cooper S spec engine with an 11-stud head, S pistons, and an S crankshaft. The con-rods were Innocenti spec. Carburetors were twin SU 1.25-inch, 538 cam and Lucas 25D4 distributor producing about 71bhp. Top end was about 95MPH.
Mini Magazine wrote:
"There are thousands of pub-hours to be spent arguing as to what models of Mini are the rarest and/or most desirable...but definitely in the top ten in our book on the rarity side must be (the Innocenti Mini Cooper 1300 Export)"... "there can't be many more than a handful of these luxuriously-appointed, highly-tuned Italian "blossom" left in existence."
Quote from: BruceK on October 20, 2018, 07:42:49 AM
Pretty cool to find 3 hidden Minis right by your house. Obviously you're focusing on one car, but tell us about the other ones when you get a chance.
One is a vermilion orange car that was restored by madhouse minis when they were still in bussiness. Externally very clean with just a nasty dent on a door that will be an easy fix. Has a 998. Interior was pretty horrible and needs new carpet, door cards, and proper seats. All 3 cars have been parked for a few years and need gone over to be drivers. The guy that asked me to come inspect these cars bought it for $4250. The other car was brg with webasto roof. It was garbage as it had a flip front cobbled together, home made manifold and jet ski carbs afixed. It would take a lot of work to bring it back to it's former glory. Imterior was all there and just needed cleaning but body was showing signs of rust.
To keep everyone in further suspense the "buy them all now" price that was offered was 15k.
Here's something that is going to affect the value of the Innocenti: the right information on the title.
According to the MOT History site, it was listed as a 1980 car (perhaps when it came to the UK?), but these model Innocentis went out of production by 1975. If there is value in the Inno model (and there is) then the title must be accurate. So it would be a challenge to work with the state DMV to get the title corrected, but I think that will be needed to sell it the right way. Otherwise, with a mismatched title, it effectively becomes a bitsa Mini. Even though it was Italian-built, it might be possible to get a Heritage Certificate for it based upon it being a CKD kit and some production paperwork retained in the UK?
Yeah that's a concern. I haven't seen the title to see what it's registered as. The engine plate is also missing. Not sure if there are any hidden numbers I can find to track down it's true identity.
I have mixed experiences with changing title information with the NY DMV. When I went twice in person to change year, VIN and colour on my title I was promptly told to "contact the original manufacturer" and have them issue supporting documents. I spent about 2 hours trying to argue how that would not be possible. I was turned away. When I telephoned the Albany office a few days later explaining that "due to the age of the car, some information was incorrect", they changed the all of it that day and issued me a new document. Go figure.
It can certainly be done, just depends on your luck.
Will be getting title information tonight. Also word is the missing back seat has been found.
If it started as "$15K for all three" and the orange (Vermilion) one has sold at $4250, ...
That should put the remaining two at about $10750 for both? I think it would be worth that for the green one as a "parts car" and the Inno to bring back to life.
The Inno itself might be worth close to that "as-is"?
All pending what the paperwork indicates, of course.
Green one has a metro motor, but the carb situation makes it dicey. Would make a good parts car or candidate for full shell restore.
https://www.barrett-jackson.com/Events/Event/Details/1975-INNOCENTI-MINI-COOPER-212855
Also, we have 542139.
B39/7 for the Leyland Innocenti Cooper Export model starting from 54001.
Definitely an Inno. The VIN plate on the slam panel is incorrect though. That is an Austin plate that has been cut down and made square. Innos had the VIN stamped into the RH inner wing in big numbers. Kinda like old Fords did. Look there and see if it has the same number as what's on the title. It may be that they had to title it as it is/perhaps as an Austin so they could import it . Don't know. Wiring is much different from UK Minis. Lots of different colours of wires and lots of fuses. I had to rewire a 1300 Export once and it was a challenge. Good part of that is, that the instruments have a coloured dot next to the spade or stud that is representative of the wire colour. I have an Inno grille in my storage unit, but I'll have to dig it out and see what the condition is. BTW, if you do anything around the dash area, be careful as the plastic there is very thin and usually brittle from age/heat/sun.
Thanks Hugh! Keep me posted on the grill. At this point imperfect is better than what's on there. My research also says the vin is stamped on the inner wing. I'd bet money it's the same code as the wrong vin plate.
Here's a inno Cooper 1300 on BaT a year ago. Sold for $20K.
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1974-innocenti-cooper-1300/
Has lots of useful photos including the VIN stamping Hugh mentioned.
I phoned an expert. His 1966 Shelby is a 2015 over there as a result of how they do it. So what we have is a 70s inno that sold/imported in the UK in 1980.
"UK calls a cars year the year it is sold. So theoretically a 1972 sold in 1980 for the first time would have "first registered in 1980" on the title which in UK is called a V5"
my uk mini was a late 84 build, some parts where the 84 left overs, and some parts where 85 parts, ie the change over year
but it was sold in feb of 85, so the V5 says its a 85 model
the Italian built minis have a vin number starting with B38 or B39
and the rear tail lights say built in Italy on them
Correct, found on the DVLA website that they explain there's the date of first registration and date of first registration in the UK on the v5c document.
After tons and tons of research I have concluded it was built in April 1973. Dvla records show first registered in the UK in 1980 and manufactured in 1973. Case solved.
Well done, Sherlock!
Thank you Watson!
Quote from: 94touring on October 21, 2018, 08:23:58 AM
After tons and tons of research I have concluded it was built in April 1973. Dvla records show first registered in the UK in 1980 and manufactured in 1973. Case solved.
That's great. Do you think that is enough to get the process started to have the title changed?
There might be something - paperwork - in the car that shows the vin, an old reg, service or Mot or something.
Quote from: BruceK on October 21, 2018, 09:15:19 AM
Quote from: 94touring on October 21, 2018, 08:23:58 AM
After tons and tons of research I have concluded it was built in April 1973. Dvla records show first registered in the UK in 1980 and manufactured in 1973. Case solved.
That's great. Do you think that is enough to get the process started to have the title changed?
I do. I have the gov documents to print that have the current plate on the car showing the correct year, along with official documents that go into detail explaining vin codes which will match the stamp on the wing. Along with production numbers and other innos of the same year with their vins all showing conclusively what it is and how the error was made. If the state has a copy of the v5c from importation it will also show both years. The dvla website explains it as well. So it is really hard to imagine it can't be corrected. Everything I'm reading about title corrections points to it can be done with evidence.
Great. So, did you buy the car?
Dave do you want to take this one?
You guys didn't chip in and buy me a present, did you? ;D
Yeah we're like Oprah. AND YOU GET A CAR AND YOU GET A CAR!
Yes, Dan and I went halvsies on the car. I'm going to do the mechanical refurbishment and Dan will make the body and interior pretty, then we'll sell it. We may put it on BaT just for fun or we may just put it on Craigslist and see what happens.
We're both pretty pumped on what a good car it is (maybe) but we're not counting chickens yet till we get it to my shop and can evaluate it further. Dan is confident he can get the title situation sorted so that will make it easier to move too.
I'll be starting a restoration thread once the car hits my shop with plenty o pics.
Car has been put over into my name this afternoon and hauled to a different location for me to get.
Dig the wheels on that.
Very cool on the partnership. 4.gif So you are both doing the Edd China role? ;D
Sorta, each to their strengths.....
I'll get it running and convert the steering back to left side, we'll know more once we get it running but the plan is to drop the motor and subframe out and give it all a good clean and paint. There is no engine plate so unless we can find some sort of history or document with that info we won't be able to put one back on.
This is all very exciting, looking forward to it!
This was the other car that was bought.
Starting to get a good collection of minis at the shop.
Well the orange one was bought by a guy named Aaron. Inno goes to Dave toward the end of the month. Then back to the grind getting other cars done so I can reclaim my shop.
Looks good! I see in the photos that it has the "Export" badges on the A panels, so yes it is a 1300 Export. Wheels are not stock, but are Abarth Cromodoras. Did the number stamped into the inner fender match the number on the title and the VIN plate?
More clues. Not finding anything stamped on the wing. The shell however is flawless, no new panels, reskinned doors, really good paint that shows zero sign of a respray. Every bit and bob is innocenti. Would a 73 have a washer bottle bracket holder on the right wing? Starting to wonder if it was a reshell with virtually every inno part transferred over.
The black canister item in front of the brake booster is about where the Innocenti body number/VIN should be stamped into the inner wing.
I still haven't dug out my Parnell book to check anything.
Yeah nothing there. I had my head burried in there on that side looking with all my might. The wing has not been replaced. All factory welds and sealer is there.
So, did you move the black canister? Lots of junk in the way, I bet it's under there somewhere. BTW, here's the ad on MM cars for sale section for the Rostyle wheels. https://www.minimania.com/cars4Sale/15261/Part__Mini_1275_GT_Rostyle_Wheels
I found a picture from a past BaT auction of an Innocenti Mini that shows the stamped VIN/Body number. It is on the right inner wing behind the brake booster - stamped directly into the inner wing.
Looking at the vin stamp vs the area I was looking in, I'd say it doesn't have one. Anyone identity this number?
Bonnet hinges on this 75 inno are the inner hinges like early minis used. Ours is outter.
Notta
I bet it's hidden under the wiring harness. There's too much correct stuff on that car for it not to be a real Innocenti.
I'll keep digging but I agree!
I pulled the harness down but still not finding it.
Did some web archive searching. Looks like March 73.
I think the color is Navarra red.