Heartbeat of America? What a crockasheet....

[MiniGene]

https://www.npr.org/2018/11/26/670817460/gm-announces-cuts-at-car-assembly-plants-in-michigan-ohio-canada

I understand capitalism and I am for it but, godamn, the leaders at GM are heartless.  They couldn't at least wait until AFTER the holidays to deliver this news?  I'm glad I don't own a GM product.

[Jims5543]

https://www.npr.org/2018/11/26/670817460/gm-announces-cuts-at-car-assembly-plants-in-michigan-ohio-canada

I understand capitalism and I am for it but, godamn, the leaders at GM are heartless.  They couldn't at least wait until AFTER the holidays to deliver this news?  I'm glad I don't own a GM product.

They are dropping all their cars in favor for trucks and SUV's.  Even axing the Volt and Bolt.  Seems they forgot the lesson learned from Hummer.

When they fail this time, I hope no one bails them out.

[gr8kornholio]

Ford had reportedly stated a similar plan to axe most cars and focus on trucks and suvs.  Guess all these geniuses forgot what happened to them 10 years ago when gas hit $4 a gallon. Greed leads to memory loss. But they did learn they don't have to be responsible because they are to big to fail and their collapse would be to detrimental to the country so the government will always bail them out. 

[Jims5543]

I stopped and thought about this a bit.

Kia and Hyundai are really good bangs for the buck, for now, I will never own one, although the Genesis and Stinger are both tempting.


Toyota Camry is an amazing car and very reliable.

Honda... everything Honda is still reliable.

Mazda, is getting amazing gas mileage out of the 3 and 6.

Mercedes make fantastic high end sedans.

Same for BMW and Audi and VW. 

Ford.... What? A Focus?  Fusion?  Why?

Chevy....  Impala?  Cruz? Which is an after though just to sell a gas version of the Volt.   Speaking of which I think axing the Volt and bolt is a huge mistake, but I do not see their sales numbers.  Shame they are gettign rid of them , I hope Obama can grab one before its gone. He said he was going to buy one once out of office.

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1073508_obama-ill-buy-a-chevy-volt-after-my-presidency-ends


In the end, it makes sense that Ford and Chevy are axing a bunch of sedans. If I was in the market for a sedan, Ford and Chevy are at the bottom of my list.  They make fantastic cars for extra large Americans.  SUV's Pickup trucks all for super sized America.  It makes sense, do what you do best and leave the things you do bad for others who do it better.

I am sure the Camaro, Corvette and Mustang are safe.... for now.

[MiniGene]

Jim, when you put it that way it does make sense. 

Side note: When we landed here back in the USofA this summer I picked up an affordable used 2017 Jeep Compass from Hertz's used car lot.  I like it and it works really well for the family and I, but after owning nothing but Japanese vehicles (mostly, there was a Ford Explorer briefly in my past) and my wife's Mini Cooper S, I can definitely see and feel the difference in quality.

Even if Ford and GM drop everything but trucks and SUVs, I hope they don't get lazy.  The amount of Tundras I see on the roads is crazy!

[BruceK]

Chevy....  Impala?  Cruz? Which is an after though just to sell a gas version of the Volt.   Speaking of which I think axing the Volt and bolt is a huge mistake, but I do not see their sales numbers.

I've been paying attention to the news and I haven't heard that the Bolt is being dropped. It would make zero sense to drop their highly developed electric car.

[Jims5543]

Chevy....  Impala?  Cruz? Which is an after though just to sell a gas version of the Volt.   Speaking of which I think axing the Volt and bolt is a huge mistake, but I do not see their sales numbers.

I've been paying attention to the news and I haven't heard that the Bolt is being dropped. It would make zero sense to drop their highly developed electric car.

I may be wrong there, I thought I saw a blurb on the news that the Volt and Bolt were both gone. A quick search says you are right the Bolt is staying. I will say this much, when shopping for a hybrid Electric car, the 1st gen Volt appealed to me, the newest offering? They lost their way it was not what the 1st gen was. I found the i3 to be a much better car as I do the 1st gen Volt.

As an aside, I was recently on vacation, the rental car was a Ford Fusion hybrid.  We were getting 40 MPG with it in mixed city / highway driving. I was impressed with how it drove and how it handled.   It was no BMW but, for what it was, I was not unhappy driving it.

I have had in the past a Nissan Altima and I hated it, it was very unstable at highway speeds and handled like crap.  I also rented a Chevy Impala to drive one way to SC to pick up my FJ Cruiser and drive back, which I bought site unseen.  The Impala was horrid and was making everyone car sick with its horrible and vague ride.

[jeff10049]

I'm glad you stopped to think about it Jim, I have a lot of family working at GM and it's not an easy choice for them to drop the car lines but the union is part of what makes it hard for them to compete with foreign cars they just can't pay 42.50 an hour for someone to put a bolt in a hole all day.. so something has to give and unfortunately it's quality to keep price down or price them out of the market. Either way they are out of the market none of us in business would continue to do something that's not working just because it seems like we should. Also most business has a life cycle it's hard to think of something as big as GM Ford Etc... but they are not exempt from the same struggles as any other business.

People overall chose to support foreign cars more than American was it Quality, Price, they heard they were better, who knows but that's what happened many things influence that but it's what happened. They big 3 have tried to break the union people complained so they can't afford to compete with cheaper cars quality suffered in an effort to compete people complained about quality so they (gm ford) decide its time to give up people complain people did everything but buy their cars and now they are mad?
People weren't buying any more of their cars in the gas price height either they just bought more foreign cars. So that argument is out.


For the people complaining about the jobs lost FUCK EM, they brought it on them selfs there is a reason the foreign car assembly plants are in non-union states and they still pay well for what the job is. The folks who lost a job can go get a job at Toyota for less than half of what they make now. And reflect back on all the UAW threats and bull shit they pulled.
I am not against a decent paying job but they have pushed too far and now they are losing their jobs because of it. Imagine employing thousands of workers at millions less per day that goes a long way towards what you can put into the end product. And we are not willing to pay for quality I am and you might be but most won't they want quality and if two products are the same price they will take the higher quality one if two products are the same quality they will not take the higher priced one.

Or if you are pro-union then go buy the shit out of UAW cars and beg for more quality at a higher price and boycott Toyota and Honda but that didn't happen so here we are.

If Foreign trucks become nice luxury loaded trucks that can do the job hold up and are priced at the non-union prices under say 100K the big three will be screwed as they again will be unable to compete without quality suffering to drop the price point unless Americans are willing to pay more but again that was not the case with cars. Right now there is no such thing as a foreign truck that can compete so we're safe for now.


Also, Tundras are shit compared to a GM Truck and I work on enough of both to know people only buy them because they are Toyota and think it will be a great product. Toyota has great small trucks and cars but the tundras are garbage. I know that some people love the tundra and maybe even had a bad gm but overall the American trucks from the big 3 all put a POS Toyota full size to shame in every way.
Toyota should actually be ashamed of riding on their reputation and selling such junk it will and already has caught up to them they never recovered from the tundra sales decline that started 2 years ago down another 1.3% this year the big three are up. And now that more and more of them (tundras) are breaking in half from a rusted frame even around here with no salt after only 3-4 years people are really getting pissed. And that does not include all the other problems that plague the tundra.
I have nothing against the tundra if it was a good truck I would praise it but it's just not.

MiniGene,
You are glad you don't own a GM product? Then YOU are part of the reason this is happening you didn't buy their stuff and now you are mad that they will quit making it?
A perfect example of what I said above.
This is not happening right this second the jobs will exist for a time yet.

Myself I don't care for the American smaller cars either I do have a GM truck it is amazing so I don't blame them for focusing on what sells I hate to see the volt go but again I didn't buy one more interested in a Tesla or e mini.

If we want to see the big three continue we should support the products they continue to sell if we need a truck don't look past them and then complain when they need a bailout or go under. If they have to price it higher to compete then pay it or don't complain when quality suffers. Or buy a non-union Toyota and let them fail and don't complain about  it's just business it happens the consumer decides who lives or dies.

[Jims5543]

Jeff I agree 100% with everything you posted.  Especially with the unions.  My father belonged to a Teamster Union in NY in the 70's and 80's so many stories of absolute BS and waste.

I will admit when it comes to work trucks I am a Toyota brand whore. I do not need a 1 ton truck, I need a small truck that is somewhat efficient and reliable. A Tundra is not even on my radar. I prefer the Tacoma's and to be honest I was just searching Craigslist for a mid 90's 2wd Toyota Pickup again. I hate my 2004 and miss my 1994 I sold off. I want another one.  The old Pickups with the 22R engine are tanks and run forever.

In years past when I worked for other companies we had Chevy WT 1500's and they were dead reliable.   If I were to go back to an American truck that would be it.

I think I posted in the electrification thread, a company in Ohio is building a hybrid electric truck with a drive train layout similar to the 1st Gen Volt and current i3.  I am watching them closely.

Great points Jeff.

[94touring]

Easy on the tundra, I like my 03!

I pay union dues. Honestly I'd rather keep the money and tell them to shove it, at least our union reps.  They did such a bad job negotiating and put forth such utter crap contracts, that we voted them down not once but twice.  I don't bother doing any surveys, polls, or waste my timing talking to them anymore.  I gave myself the raise I wanted by taking on a check airmen position.  Anyway, car union and airline union are surely a million miles apart.  I do know you can't pay someone 45 bucks an hour to put lug nuts on though.

[velopackrat]

What I like about Dan's forum is, we can share a civil discourse on a topic like this one.  I don't know where I stand exactly but when I sold my '67 S (and I've not admitted this to many) I bought a new Ford Fiesta ST for the hell of it.  At the root of it, I love small cars and I love hotrods.  It occurred to me that a Fiesta ST is the modern day Cooper S, a small, cheap, hotrod shitbox to be flogged.  The difference being airbags and A/C.  And my wife will ride in it.  And I realize this is subjective but I like the styling, which apparently came across from Ford Europe.

I'll bet the dudes at the Ford dealership threw a friggin' impromptu party after I drove away in my new Ford that no one wants to buy.  But I like it. 

So what will happen when the economy makes a wicked correction or gas goes to $4?  You guys said it.  These current decisions by Ford and GM will bite them in ass.  Again. 

[joakwin]

I'm a Honda guy now but grew up in a Chevy family, my 1st vehicle was a Chevy truck, I learned to drive in an Astro van,

if I were to buy a truck again, I would go with Chevy over Dodge or Ford, I work on trucks from the big 3 and fords are always in the shop, the diesel fords more then anything but its mostly with how they are used why they are always in the shop


when i was deployed in Africa one time we had a Tundra to work on, i hated that truck, it was nice, the interior seemed nice sitting in the drivers seat with a computer but it had bugs in the wiring, something electrical was always happening with that truck, and it wasn't the same stuff going wrong with that truck

[gr8kornholio]

Wow, this Tundra enlightenment is making me feel better about buying the wife her dream Camaro instead.  Still occasionally driving my 85 toyota 22R pickup.  Still going.

[94touring]

Mine just turned 105k.  Everything works as it should.  Pulls my trailer and cars without any issues. It's very comfortable.  The brakes are a little lacking when pulling a big load.  But, I bought something cheap that gets the job done.  A truck that cost more than my shop wasn't in the budget.

[MiniDave]

My company leased me 4 Tundra's over a 12 year period, I never had any issues with any of them - they just worked. some would say I never kept them long enough to have any issues but my point is - I never had anything go wrong with any of them.

Before that we leased a Ford F-150 and I could definitely tell the difference in strength when I had a real load on it, the Ford just felt more substantial either in the bed or towing but that was with the first Tundra, when we got the next gen with the much bigger frame and body, I couldn't really feel any difference. The one big difference was in the engine/trans....the Ford just didn't cut it, the Tundra was only rated about 25 more HP but it had so much more power, and was infinitely smoother than the Ford.

I thought the frame problems were only with Taco's, not the big brother?

Whenever I go past the local Toyota dealer they have several new frames out in the back waiting to go into a truck....but they're all the smaller Taco frames.

[MiniGene]

MiniGene,
You are glad you don't own a GM product? Then YOU are part of the reason this is happening you didn't buy their stuff and now you are mad that they will quit making it?
A perfect example of what I said above.
This is not happening right this second the jobs will exist for a time yet.

Jeff, that's a bit harsh...especially if you re-read my post.  For real, take another look.  I UNDERSTAND their business move.  I think it was a low blow to their work force to release this information right before the holiday season.  And yes, nobody is losing their job today, but have you ever sweated YOUR job before and during cuts?  Not fun for you or your family.

[MiniDave]

I worked for Generous Motors for almost a year in one of the sub-assembly plants and the union stuff I saw there was difficult to understand or stomach.

This was a "light duty" plant, which meant they weren't on the line doing things at a steady rate - so many a minute - like on the main production line. Rather, they had racks that they would fill with parts in sequence, so that when the line worker needed a part, the right one was in the rack for that car. My job was to make sure that the right parts were in the right bins - which they rarely were. To get this duty you had to have more than 20 years at GM. I would audit each rack when completed and note mistakes on a form, when I found a mistake I was not allowed to tell the worker, I had to hunt down a supervisor and tell him, then he informed the worker and so on.....all this had to be done and corrected before the rack left for the assembly plant. It was a very inefficient way to do it, with little to no responsibility or consequences. Mind you this was very easy and simple work...within a few days of starting the job I could look at the rack and tell in seconds which parts were wrong....why couldn't they? Simple answer, they didn't have to - they had me for that.

One day as I was walking thru the plant on the way to my assigned area I bent down and picked up a piece of carboard and casually tossed it in the bin.....BIG mistake! A moment later I had 9 of the biggest guys surrounding me asking me what the hell I was doing picking up the cardboard? The gist was they had an employee who's job it was to do that and if management saw me doing it they might conclude they didn't need that guy and he could lose his job! (My immediate thought was  - well, why the hell didn't that guy DO his job, as that crap was all over the plant, but I was smart enough to keep my mouth shut)

Another instance - a worker was unloading a freight car full of transmissions with a fork truck and misjudged it and dropped one, destroying it. His punishment was he had to take a week off - with full pay - and think about what he did. Kind of like being sent to recess for a week in school - that'll teach him to be more careful! But before they could do any of that first they had to get the shop steward, union foreman and unions management rep all together at the plant and have an hour long meeting to discuss whether the fork truck driver could even be disciplined for what he did. the final consensus was that he could, but only as I described above.

Another - these guys were all alcoholics - they came to work potted and got worse as the day went along. One guy was so drunk he would climb into an empty box that his parts came in - body side moldings - and pull the lid over him and sleep for hours. Meanwhile they need his rack down on the line and the supervisor is frantically looking for him!

The fork truck driver's job was to keep the workers areas supplied with parts so they could fill their racks, but they would erect little "forts" that they could hide behind and sleep on their trucks. then the workers would run out of parts and the racks wouldn't be filled and the trucks couldn't leave for the plant and so on......

So yeah, I don't have happy rosy feelings about unions and the effects they have on worker productivity and quality. I don't know how they ever got anything built if the other sub assembly plants were as bad as ours - and I'm pretty sure they were.

[gr8kornholio]

Dave, that BS describes to a T what I witnessed on my United Space Alliance interview.  This is the company behind NASA.  The most obvious was the wiring group.  At that time in charge of all the wiring on the space shuttles.  Job was for several Electrical Engineers to inspect the wiring.  Then write reports that were then reviewed to then be given to repair guys who then sent the reports back to be reviewed before the Engineers were told to inspect the fix.  I mean really... You need 3 people and a week to fix a wire connection.  Guess my prior knowledge of wire use made me over-qualified.  Lol.

On a side note, I got one of the best tours of NASA ever.  Even went inside the aft end of a shuttle that had the engines removed.  They tried to get me clearance to get into the cockpit, but no dice.   

[jeff10049]

MiniGene,
Sorry man that was not meant to be harsh just like me you may not want or need to buy their products that are going away but to say you're glad not to own a GM is also a bit harsh in my mind they are doing what they think they have too. I also feel for the workers the union that is supposed to support them hosed them (Although some also deserve to lose their jobs for reasons Dave pointed out I to have witnessed this shit first hand )  but at least this way they have the most amount of notice to plane for the future.

If you haven't been around the industry it's easy to feel sorry for the employees once you've seen how most (not all)  treat the job your opinion might change.

[jeff10049]

Thought id put this in a sperate post as it's a good story or sad story I should say.

Dave,
100% on that union BS.
A good friend was working for ford and they sent him to a division of American axel they were in control of at the time.

He was an efficiency controller and they were scrapping over 50% of the parts at the time. Ford said we can't afford this we are sending someone.

Here is how the line worked it started at 6 am the axle assemblies got the tubes pressed in and welded and all mountings welded on.
The welding was robotic the line workers had been doing this long enough to know a good weld from bad just by the look.

But... it was not their job and were not even allowed to say anything lest they get reprimanded like Dave for picking up the cardboard.
So known bad welds might go by for at least 4 hours until the destructive testing lab guys got in and they would take an axle and go inspect it and see how much force it took to break a tab off if it failed the entire line so far went in the scrap at least 6 hours and thousands of axles worth by this time.

But wait theirs more... it's not the lab's job to adjust the welder so they go on full paid break while they call in the welder adjuster guy.
He adjusts the welder about 1 o clock and the line starts again about 3 o clock the lab decides if the adjustment is good or if they scrap all those too. And adjust it again whole days were lost by this inefficiency and it's not my job union mentality.

So my friend Doug came up with a solution a camera that would go into the tube to look at the HAZ (heat affected zone) and determine if the weld was good  buy the HAZ coloration and hire a guy to check 1 out of every 300 or so and adjust the welding machine if needed so max scrap would be 300 instead of thousands and handled quickly.

It worked very well and proved to be a very efficient way of checking weld quality.

UAW got wind and no way it threatened JOBS! like the destructive  Lab, the welder adjuster guy line workers would have to actually work more NO WAY. Camera machine was put in the corner and the old way was back in less than a month with AAM (American axle manufacturing)  and the UAW threating Ford with an axle strike if they tried that again.

This is a real problem I have no respect for the UAW  I do feel for the workers who are trapped into it and lose their jobs but the automakers and workers need to take a stand enough is enough... or if you are just lazy and enjoy the UAW way then I don't care if you lose your job.

Maybe if I have time I'll write about the time Ford lost a billion dollar contract to build engines for Toyota because as Toyota put it our factories are shit and full of lazy people who have no pride (they didn't understand the UAW made them this way but it didn't matter they saw what they saw) . Gm also lost the same contract for different reasons UAW caused this in both cases in the gm factory it came down to it's not my job mentality over a hydraulic leak in a piece of equipment the Toyota people just couldn't understand this and walked out.

Have a lot of sad stories from my uncles days at hydramatic as well.
He was ashamed to be a UAW worker in the end.

[John Gervais]

"For a lot of the reasons stated above, I don't think GM can compete in the market, so they *have* to reinvent themselves. They have to go all in on electric, all in on self-driving and innovate."

Really?  Self-driving? 

Yikes, that's scary stuff.  I think 'self-driving' is irresponsible and ought to be banned.  If a person can't be bothered to 'be involved' in the driving process, then ask a friend, take a bus or take a licensed taxi.

Regarding Toyota's 22R engine, that and the 20R are fantastic engines with loads of competition upgrades available.  My old Celica had the 20R - ran great without the EGR system, Crane cam, twin Webers, header, modded dizzy, etc....  Vroom-friggin'-vroom! 

I can't remember which engine my wife's 2011 Yaris has, but she really loves the car, as it's quiet, smooth, handles great, 6-speed manual, well-built and comfy.  T'is a genuine Toyota, made in Japan.

[Jims5543]

My father can tell union stories for days like Dave and Jeff.


One I remember was so stupid I will never forget it.

My dad was a Commercial Truck Driver, he had all the licensing and whatever else you need for that position. That was his job.  What he sometimes forgot was, that was his ONLY job.

One day on a job they were working on, he was driving a truck with water blasting equipment on the back. He would hear a bang on the back of the truck, pull forward 20' and wait until the next bang on the back of the truck, all day long.

One time he pulled forward 20'. When he stopped there was a wheel barrel in the way for the next 20' move.  He jumped out, walked over the pushed the wheel barrel 5' over so it was out of his way.  Walked back to the truck and waiting for the next bang to move.

Then a job super came walking onto the scene, told my dad to shut down his truck, and stopped the job. An investigation was being launched on my dad for doing a laborers job when he was not authorized to.  They stopped the job because he moved a wheel barrel 5' and it was not his job.

Seems the proper procedure was to stop the job, call for a super, tell him the problem, he would then find a "qualified" laborer to come and move the wheel barrel 5' out of the way.

Dad almost lost his job that day, mostly because he told everyone that would listen how fucking stupid they all were.

He was put on probation for being disrespectful to the job super. IIRC his boss swapped him to another project and put a different driver on that one.

[gr8kornholio]

Wow, I thought only my government run job experience was this messed up.  No wonder they struggle.  That and if you work for these places for 25 years you probably get full pension, so at this point they are paying 2 people on pension and 1 to still be doing the job.  Once again can't flaw the workers that's a great deal, but stupid on the company for not thinking it through.

I'll have to do some research, but If I remember right years back Boeing got new ownership or something and pretty much threw out the union.  They told the employees they could keep their jobs and be treated fairly or keep the union and the whole place would go bust.  They kept their jobs and axed the union.

[94touring]

I believe they moved production to South Carolina which is non union. I could be wrong, but I see the dream lifters at the SC plant moving parts and fuselages around.

[MiniDave]

Similar thing happened with my father's company - Vendo. Been in business for 50 years and the labor situation kept getting worse, quality went down, buyers (Coke and Pepsi mostly) threatened to cancel contracts. Union said they were going on strike for more money, company said we can't pay any more, we'll have to shut down. Union went on strike, company closed down and moved production to Mississippi......workers there were so unskilled and untrainable that the company closed that plant in a year. Only one left was in Fresno Ca, so dad went there. Vendo is still extant in Europe and Asia, it was bought by Sanden in the mid-90's and all production moved to Italy and England.

I don't remember the details, but I remember when GM and Toyota agreed to build cars together in California at NUMMI it was a BIG deal, and there were severe corporate clashes - Toyota management structure and UAW workers......it was a mess for a while but they did manage to make it work. Now Tesla owns that plant and builds cars there.