Turbocharging Miss Blue

[MPlayle]

Here is the start of the new thread mentioned in the "Soliciting Thoughs & Opinions" thread.  Old thread from Lounge

I have started collecting the parts I think will be needed, along with a few spares.

I got in a new set of drop gears from Mini Spares - their EVO series square cut in the selections for an "economy" ratio of about 0.9 versus the 1.04xx I currently have.  I also ordered a new input bearing, since I have to change the input gear.  I also got a couple of clutch oil seals, housing gaskets, and manifolds gaskets.  I am getting the Jet Motors Turbo kit with the complete intake, carb, fuel pump, and fuel pressure regulator.  I am also getting their dual boost/AFR gauge and mounting pod.  I found on ebay a vented rocker cover for the A-Series from a Morris Minor that I can refurbish to have extra venting as recommended.  I am also going to upgrade my ignition coil to a "Flamethrower II".  I can stay with my current distributor since I already upgraded it with an Accuspark module.

The plan is to start the project in November - after the area "car show season".  While doing the performance upgrades, I will also be installing the exterior wood kit as used on some of the Mini Estates from the 1960s.

I will try to post more with pictures as the whole project progresses.

[MiniDave]

I'm excited to see the turbo kit go on, post up lots of pics, please!

BTW, those straight cut drop gears are NOISY! That's why stock ones are helical...

[skmini]

Following.   

[94touring]

What will you be using to create a timing map?

[MPlayle]

No ECU to map.

I will be using my existing 59D4 distributor with the Accuspark module instead of points.

Per Jeremy, the timing should be set for about 18* advance (BTDC) at 4K rpm with the vacuum advance disconnected.

I plan to obtain a new timing light with advance feature and check my current timing at that setting to compare.  I currently have a non-advance timing light that I used to set the current timing at 8* BTDC at 1500rpm per the Haynes manual.

[MiniDave]

Wow, 18* is not much......stock Minis are more like 32-34* at 4K....

[94touring]

Yes so don't do that.  Get with the times and run proper timing. His suggestion is straight out of the 80s.  Spend the money on a 123BT, the blue tooth version that is programmable. I can make you a map in about 2 minutes that will give you vacuum advance, regular timing outside of boost, and vacuum retard in boost. 

[94touring]

Here is a very quick example of a boost map I created based off my bus mapping. type 1 and A series are pretty closely curved with the exception of the vacuum signals and subsequent entry points for vacuum advance.

[94touring]

As a bonus you get a cool dashboard.  Everything is monitored and tuned with your phone. 

[94touring]

Also just looking at his kit, it doesn't come with an intercooler. This is another important factor you must consider. You can either drive in boost as needed, but never too long on hot days, or add a way to cool the intake charge.

[94touring]

Coincidentally I needed to top off my boost fluid in the rx7 just now after taking it for a spirited drive.  You should either install an intercooler or adapt h20 or h20/meth (-20 is 67/33% mixture) to spray into the turbo.  I can show you how this is easily done. I've since converted to oil burner nozzles and made my own adapters for my bus type 1 motor.  Better atomization, great filters, and a clog free design. I'm building an NA race motor for it that will run on pump gas as a result.  The rx7 gets 25psi on pump gas.  Normally limited to 15psi with pump gas but the h20 makes that big of a difference. Rarely have to fill up the rx7 because it only activates at low boost. 

[MPlayle]

In one of the videos about the turbo kit, Jeremy mentions using 28* on a turbo'd 998, so I thought the 18* he said when discussing the purchase seemed off.  That is also why I was going to measure the current advance at 4K rpm (vacuum disconnected) for comparison.

I looked up the 123BT: $575 if ordered direct from the 123 USA division!  Also, I don't have a compatible device for the software.  The only Bluetooth capable device I have is my Macbook-Air running MacOS.  The 123-Tune software is made for either Android or iOS (iPhones or iPads).

[MPlayle]

I plan to keep the boost on the lower side - 8 to 10 psi max.  The afore mentioned video of a turbo'd 998 was also limited to 10 psi max boost.

[94touring]

I'd run 30-32 degrees out of boost with vacuum connected giving 40-42 at light throttle, and 22-24 degrees at 10psi. I'd get a device that works with a 123bt.  But I also would run an intercooler or h20 because otherwise you are surely on your way to sadness, broken stuff, and a crappy running turbo setup with poor fuel mileage and really hot egt's.  Your oil temps will also be hotter and you may need to factor in that as well.  Oil cooler or synthetic at bare minimum if your temps are getting out of control for conventional. You'll know if it works or not on a hot day doing sustained hill pulls by going the easiest route possible. 

[MPlayle]

Now you are just scaring me out of undertaking the project.   

[94touring]

I'm just telling you things I'd be doing so that it works as you want it to.  Put it this way, spend 3k on his kit now. Or spend 3k now, and 1k-2k on the extra details later and another however much to rebuild or source another motor after it all goes sideways because you skipped the details now. Turbos create heat.  A lot of it.  Even small ones do.  2 inch intercooler piping and some small generic intercooler isn't going to break the bank.   A $600 distributor that properly gets timing where it should be is also cheap insurance and will make a hell of a big difference in overall driving enjoyment. Locking an old dizzy at 24° in the year 2026 is ridiculous. Or just backing one out to max out at 24° will make the thing soggy and hot down low, might even backfire out the carb off idle honestly.  This turbo cools via oil I'm guessing.  That's something that I'd stick a gauge on and see do I need an oil cooler.  Anything above about 240f on oil temps with conventional oil is getting too high.  High intake air temps, boost, and high timing will create the kind of detonation nightmares are made of.  This is assuming you get the fuel dialed in to 12:1 or a little richer at 10psi and below. Not trying to rain on your parade but just slapping on a turbo kit without other considerations is asking for trouble. 

[Dan Moffet]

I did a mental double-take on the vacuum advance VS turbo boost. Then I remembered vacuum occurs when the throttle is closed (or partially) so boost wouldn't affect vacuum. At 4000 rpm, throttle is open so virtually no vacuum. And there'd be boost, right? So, at 4000 rpm having the vacuum connected or not should not matter.

I have one of the first generation 123's which does not consider vacuum at 4000 rpm. It's on a 1275cc high compression 10.5:1 and it still works flawlessly.

(I'm ready for an explanation of there I've gone wrong!)

[94touring]

I did a mental double-take on the vacuum advance VS turbo boost. Then I remembered vacuum occurs when the throttle is closed (or partially) so boost wouldn't affect vacuum. At 4000 rpm, throttle is open so virtually no vacuum. And there'd be boost, right? So, at 4000 rpm having the vacuum connected or not should not matter.

I have one of the first generation 123's which does not consider vacuum at 4000 rpm. It's on a 1275cc high compression 10.5:1 and it still works flawlessly.

(I'm ready for an explanation of there I've gone wrong!)

Yes if the vacuum is connected is would make 24° at 4k rpms at close to full throttle and 34° at light throttle with a canister that adds 10° as most do.  Under boost it would be 24°.  Early 123s just had 16 selectable curves and none were for turbos. The style I'm talking about allows boost retard.  You get a flawless and perfect curve, can run a 60k volt 1.5 ohm coil as well.  The next best thing is trigger wheel but that's a different can of worms. The 123bt is easy.  I'll gladly make a map that will work fantastic and safely. 

Edit again:  if the dizzy is locked out then it just stays at the fixed position regardless of vacuum and throttle position. That's the old school way of doing it.  You gain some mid range, but cruise like shit, and may experience kickback on startup.

[MiniDave]

The simplest thing would be to add the squirter to the intake system, once the car is up and running - if you find that you're getting detonation. But with 8.5 compression and not getting crazy on the boost and setting the timing correctly I think it will be OK.

If needed I have a brandy new 13 row oil cooler I can sell you, those are an easy bolt on deal too. (and no tarrifs!  :-)  )

Intercooler is a different can of worms, only because there is so little room to mount one, even a small one, and run the necessary piping.

Do you need a one way check valve in the vacuum line to the dizzy so that you don't send boost to the vacuum advance?

[94touring]

Pros to h20 alone without an intercooler are not having to get creative with the piping and intercooler installation.  You could in theory run lower octane fuel at your boost level, especially if you use a water/meth blend. It makes it virtually detonation proof if you screw up air fuel ratios or run excessively high timing. You can tweak the air fuel ratios with it by altering the methanol volumes.  It turns a small turbo into a not as small turbo by pre spraying the inlet, effectively increasing the turbine wheel mapping efficiency. Cons are you have to install a kit and remember to add distilled water to a reservoir or any blue washer fluid which contains only distilled water, methanol, and blue dye.

I have a snows performance boost controller for a turbo kit I never used. I think there's just a few additional items to add for it to sense boost on when to activate the pump. You'd have it activate at something like 3psi and ramp from low volume at 3psi to it's highest volume by 10psi, which on this power output wouldn't require a ton of volume. It doubles as a boost gauge and shows activation and when the reservoir is getting low. A standard 3qt reservoir would last awhile. It would ensure summertime long hills you're not pinging yourself to a flatbed tow home.  Pro meth sells small pumps for very affordable prices that would work great on something like this. I would donate my time to machine a properly sized GPH oil burner nozzle and adaptor and afix it to any turbo filter you have.

[cdnmini]

Sounds like a fun project to give your Mini some more oomph.
Go for it, it will put a smile on your face when its all done.
Just remember, boost is addictive!

As Dan has mentioned above, timing is very crucial for a turbo motor to run properly and NOT self destruct itself. Old adage: More power = more heat. By keeping the heat in check, you're able to safely run more boost and your engine will be much happier and last longer.

I went through this same exercise as yourself, except I decided to build my own kit.
Even though I have on hand an old Metro turbo dizzy, I went with programmable ignition to control the timing and make sure timing is correct throughout the speed and load range.

Lots of good info on the internet, and people are willing to share their experiences of what is proven to work successfully.
phil

[94touring]

I did some reading on stock era turbo minis and metro turbos cars. The era turbo only produced 7psi and used as much as 28° timing.  The metro turbos only hit 7psi by 6000 rpms and had some ecu system that had it at 4psi till something like 4500 rpms.


Screenshots of things to consider.