Soliciting thoughts & opinions - power upgrades to a 998

[94touring]

I'm just telling you things I'd be doing so that it works as you want it to.  Put it this way, spend 3k on his kit now. Or spend 3k now, and 1k-2k on the extra details later and another however much to rebuild or source another motor after it all goes sideways because you skipped the details now. Turbos create heat.  A lot of it.  Even small ones do.  2 inch intercooler piping and some small generic intercooler isn't going to break the bank.   A $600 distributor that properly gets timing where it should be is also cheap insurance and will make a hell of a big difference in overall driving enjoyment. Locking an old dizzy at 24° in the year 2026 is ridiculous. Or just backing one out to max out at 24° will make the thing soggy and hot down low, might even backfire out the carb off idle honestly.  This turbo cools via oil I'm guessing.  That's something that I'd stick a gauge on and see do I need an oil cooler.  Anything above about 240f on oil temps with conventional oil is getting too high.  High intake air temps, boost, and high timing will create the kind of detonation nightmares are made of.  This is assuming you get the fuel dialed in to 12:1 or a little richer at 10psi and below. Not trying to rain on your parade but just slapping on a turbo kit without other considerations is asking for trouble. 

[Dan Moffet]

I did a mental double-take on the vacuum advance VS turbo boost. Then I remembered vacuum occurs when the throttle is closed (or partially) so boost wouldn't affect vacuum. At 4000 rpm, throttle is open so virtually no vacuum. And there'd be boost, right? So, at 4000 rpm having the vacuum connected or not should not matter.

I have one of the first generation 123's which does not consider vacuum at 4000 rpm. It's on a 1275cc high compression 10.5:1 and it still works flawlessly.

(I'm ready for an explanation of there I've gone wrong!)

[94touring]

I did a mental double-take on the vacuum advance VS turbo boost. Then I remembered vacuum occurs when the throttle is closed (or partially) so boost wouldn't affect vacuum. At 4000 rpm, throttle is open so virtually no vacuum. And there'd be boost, right? So, at 4000 rpm having the vacuum connected or not should not matter.

I have one of the first generation 123's which does not consider vacuum at 4000 rpm. It's on a 1275cc high compression 10.5:1 and it still works flawlessly.

(I'm ready for an explanation of there I've gone wrong!)

Yes if the vacuum is connected is would make 24° at 4k rpms at close to full throttle and 34° at light throttle with a canister that adds 10° as most do.  Under boost it would be 24°.  Early 123s just had 16 selectable curves and none were for turbos. The style I'm talking about allows boost retard.  You get a flawless and perfect curve, can run a 60k volt 1.5 ohm coil as well.  The next best thing is trigger wheel but that's a different can of worms. The 123bt is easy.  I'll gladly make a map that will work fantastic and safely. 

Edit again:  if the dizzy is locked out then it just stays at the fixed position regardless of vacuum and throttle position. That's the old school way of doing it.  You gain some mid range, but cruise like shit, and may experience kickback on startup.

[MiniDave]

The simplest thing would be to add the squirter to the intake system, once the car is up and running - if you find that you're getting detonation. But with 8.5 compression and not getting crazy on the boost and setting the timing correctly I think it will be OK.

If needed I have a brandy new 13 row oil cooler I can sell you, those are an easy bolt on deal too. (and no tarrifs!  :-)  )

Intercooler is a different can of worms, only because there is so little room to mount one, even a small one, and run the necessary piping.

Do you need a one way check valve in the vacuum line to the dizzy so that you don't send boost to the vacuum advance?

[94touring]

Pros to h20 alone without an intercooler are not having to get creative with the piping and intercooler installation.  You could in theory run lower octane fuel at your boost level, especially if you use a water/meth blend. It makes it virtually detonation proof if you screw up air fuel ratios or run excessively high timing. You can tweak the air fuel ratios with it by altering the methanol volumes.  It turns a small turbo into a not as small turbo by pre spraying the inlet, effectively increasing the turbine wheel mapping efficiency. Cons are you have to install a kit and remember to add distilled water to a reservoir or any blue washer fluid which contains only distilled water, methanol, and blue dye.

I have a snows performance boost controller for a turbo kit I never used. I think there's just a few additional items to add for it to sense boost on when to activate the pump. You'd have it activate at something like 3psi and ramp from low volume at 3psi to it's highest volume by 10psi, which on this power output wouldn't require a ton of volume. It doubles as a boost gauge and shows activation and when the reservoir is getting low. A standard 3qt reservoir would last awhile. It would ensure summertime long hills you're not pinging yourself to a flatbed tow home.  Pro meth sells small pumps for very affordable prices that would work great on something like this. I would donate my time to machine a properly sized GPH oil burner nozzle and adaptor and afix it to any turbo filter you have.

[ve9aa]

You're thinking about this all wrong.  For $0.00 you can rip out ALL OF the interior (except the drivers seat) and only run 1/2 tank of fuel, 1/2 JUG OF W/W FLUID etc..  Remove anything that weighs anything(even the headliner) Helium in the tires. Sand it down to primer - heck cut off the roof even.

BOOM, you're 500 lbs lighter.

Car runs like it has a turbo!

You're welcome.

[cdnmini]

Sounds like a fun project to give your Mini some more oomph.
Go for it, it will put a smile on your face when its all done.
Just remember, boost is addictive!

As Dan has mentioned above, timing is very crucial for a turbo motor to run properly and NOT self destruct itself. Old adage: More power = more heat. By keeping the heat in check, you're able to safely run more boost and your engine will be much happier and last longer.

I went through this same exercise as yourself, except I decided to build my own kit.
Even though I have on hand an old Metro turbo dizzy, I went with programmable ignition to control the timing and make sure timing is correct throughout the speed and load range.

Lots of good info on the internet, and people are willing to share their experiences of what is proven to work successfully.
phil

[94touring]

I did some reading on stock era turbo minis and metro turbos cars. The era turbo only produced 7psi and used as much as 28° timing.  The metro turbos only hit 7psi by 6000 rpms and had some ecu system that had it at 4psi till something like 4500 rpms.


Screenshots of things to consider.

[Jims5543]

You're thinking about this all wrong.  For $0.00 you can rip out ALL OF the interior (except the drivers seat) and only run 1/2 tank of fuel, 1/2 JUG OF W/W FLUID etc..  Remove anything that weighs anything(even the headliner) Helium in the tires. Sand it down to primer - heck cut off the roof even.

BOOM, you're 500 lbs lighter.

Car runs like it has a turbo!

You're welcome.

Reading this makes me appreciate Dans build with Blue.  Not only did he squeeze that 1275 to 96 hp he got the weight stupid low at 1100 lbs.

I have nothing to add except after owning a couple of turbo cars one heavily tuned, adding that heat to the engine bay has to be taken into consideration. Better radiator, oil cooler, inter-cooler would also be a consideration, or H20 injection. I would also consider EFI and stand alone, like a Wolf 3D or something like that just so you can tune the timing and fuel to get the most out of the Turbo.

Interested to see how this turns out.

[MPlayle]

Here is a 36 minute video that goes into detail about the design intentions of the Jet Motors turbo kit.  It addresses all the concerns mentioned above.

Jet Motors Turbo Q&A video

The afore mentioned 18* to 20* initial timing is the "starting point" reference with up to 24* as the preferred upper limit for 4K rpm (vacuum advance disconnected).

[94touring]

That degree per pound of boost is a pretty safe place to start. Which at 10psi puts you in the 22-24° range like I mentioned. They do say you can run vacuum, I think they're just saying set it to 22-24° at 4k without vacuum connected like you'd check max timing anyways.  I suppose at light throttle cruise you'd at least be in the 30s this way, though that's not particularly ideal for lean afr's cruising.  32+10° is better for lean cruise.  With a 123BT you can get it exactly 42° at 4k rpms at light throttle pulling vacuum, exactly 32° at 4k rpms at and near 0 lbs of boost (naturally aspirated throttle position) and exactly 24° at 10psi at 4k rpms.  But better than that you'd have 28° at 5psi.  It would perk up the whole powerband. That gt15 is what is what I have sitting on my shelf for the turbo kit I was putting together. I chose one with a slightly larger exhaust side at the time since the turbo itself is pretty small. Gt15 is just the series like a T4 I run on my rx7.  Then you configure the details of the turbo itself.  Anyways, back to h20, it would liven that turbo up yet retain the quick spool he talks about.  Think gt15 response but gt17 top end at full boost.  He mentioned high boost being tough on the rings. Well that heat reduction solves all that.

[cstudep]

Yeah a water/meth setup really helps solve a lot of the issues a turbo can introduce.

[94touring]

Yeah a water/meth setup really helps solve a lot of the issues a turbo can introduce.

It's a cheap insurance against a bad tune, questionable gas, heat, and big time performance gainer when taking advantage of it.  I've been doing it for a decade on my rotary engine and 2 years on a naturally aspirated type 1 motor.  Both applications have far exceeded expectations.  The naturally aspirated type 1 motor perhaps even more than my turbo rotary surprisingly. I've used it as only cylinder head heat reduction on my 2180cc.  I can't under any circumstances overheat the engine.  The 2387cc motor I'm building I'll increase the compression ratio dramatically to gain performance. Much like increasing boost by 10psi on the rx7.  I've also been able to increase timing safely in both applications by a couple degrees.  That's the "cool" thing about it, because if 10psi on a 998 doesn't provide hill climbing performance you want, just increase the boost till it does.  In the case of the PT6266 turbo on the rx7, around 18psi would normally be the max boost before it was done making power. But with the h20 it just keeps making power far beyond that. I use a 2 phase controller, same as the spare one I'm not using that was going to be for my 1310 blue mini Jim has now. System activates at 10psi, full spray volume at 18psi, and at 19psi the pre turbo nozzle kicks in. I may revisit this on the spare 1275 that came with the pickup that needs rebuilt.

[cstudep]

How do you like the snow system? I have been looking at adding a water/meth setup to my old 12 valve Cummins truck. I have upgraded the governor springs, fuel plate and a few other boost mods. Which obviously all increases EGT. I have a set of injectors/delivery valves but won't install until I get a little bigger turbo. For the most part they stay resonable but when I'm towing heavy up any sort of grade I have to keep an eye on it.

[94touring]

It's good. The snows gauge controller does everything you want and need.  Looking back at what I use it's the 2.5 version kit. 

[cstudep]

Looks like they have kits specific for diesel applications too. I was looking at the stage 3 version or whatever they call it as it reads boost and egt which is supposed to be super helpful for towing applications.

[94touring]

They do, pro meth does too.

[cstudep]

I hadn't heard of then before but I like the name, not just regular meth like your typical rural town drug dealer....but pro meth like they know what they are doing. Lol

In all seriousness I do like how clean their system looks with the distribution block thing, and they offer different levels of kits so you can source your own tank etc...does not look like they have a way to reference the EGT though.

Sorry for high jacking your thread MPlayle I'll try to refrain from commenting further.

[MPlayle]

It is only "sort-of" hijacked.  The discussions that have been going on in this thread kind of go together with the original thread in the Lounge.

I am going to see if I can merge the two threads under to original thread in the Lounge, then I'll start a new one dedicated to just the install project (hopefully).

[94touring]

Staying sorta on topic of h20 and professional top grade meth...  cstudep if you're spraying high volumes a standard h20 nozzle works great. Pro meth has a better selection.  If it's low volumes, as is the case with a turbo mini or most naturally aspirated 4 bangers, modified oil burner nozzles are far superior in atomization and clog resistance.  I've done the bench test! 

[cstudep]

I saw that you mentioned that sort of in passing further up the thread. I wouldnt be opposed to further elaboration on the topic since it would apply to our minis which I am also very interested in putting a turbo on one of these days.

I also dont yet know what kind of flow you would need in a diesel but guessing it would be somewhat high at times being that I can see boost up to around 40psi on my current setup.

I have seen claims water/meth at around 50/50 can add around 40 to 50hp since adding fuel is how diesels make power and meth is a fuel. Of course its all dependent on everything else, you can add fuel to a point but eventually you need to start adding air as well.

[94touring]

There are charts that show you what volume you need for the amount of horsepower. You'd use a transition style system that starts low and ramps up as you get to 40psi. On a 75hp mini You'd only need about 0.50-0.75gph flow, which is virtually nothing.  I use 800cc's on my rx7 that's 500hp.  The bus gets 1.2gph and made 135 to the wheels.  I will up it to 2gph with the 2387 in a 2 phase approach. The oil burner nozzles atomize about 100x better at low volumes. It comes out as a fog whereas standard nozzles are large droplets in a small volume nozzle.  You want the fog for pre turbo.  Bench testing the webbers with a shop vac pulling through the ram pipes, the oil burner nozzles don't even need to be directly over the intakes. Just getting it anywhere close the fog gets drawn in. A standard nozzle has to be directly above.

As far as power goes, well you only gain it a few different ways.  By having the ability to increase timing, raise boost, raise compression, or in the case of this 998 by reducing intake heat dramatically since no intercooler is present.  You'd see some gains spraying pre turbo on your diesel. If you just toss on h20 and do nothing else you gain nothing. 

[cstudep]

What are the oil burner nozzles you use? I assume they are the same nozzles that are used in oil burning furnaces and what not, so when I do an amazon search it comes up with a bunch of brass nozzles for such things.

How are you modifying them, just how you mount them or are you actually having to do something to the nozzle itself.

On the diesels most people just drill and tap a hole in the turbo intake pipe and then thread in the nozzle as it seems most of those nozzles are threaded on the front side. The oil burner nozzles I am seeing are only threaded on the back side but I may not be looking at the right thing either.

I'll search out these charts you speak of, I have not looked at one yet. Still early in my planning phase on this.