First Repair – Engine Block Timing cover (I think).
Gents, I need a little direction on my first Mini repair that is two fold.
- First I need to replace the radiator hoses. Driving home, my radiator appeared to blow a major leak as I pulled into the driveway(a couple months back). Unable to locate the leak or potential bad seam, I decided to replace the hose(s) altogether.
- Since I may be pulling the radiator, I would like to correct the second issue that I found while looking for an oil leak. I found what appears to be a separation between timing cover (I think) backing plate and engine block. Without knowing if the backing plate is bent or if the gasket is simply gone, I'm going to replace them all.
The process will go something as follows (not sure if I have terminology correct):
- Pull Radiator out (visit with Dan taught me that long screw drivers are required)
- Remove Fan
- Remove Crankshaft Pulley
- Remove timing cover and backing plate
- Installation in reverse order using new gaskets, bolts, etc..
I'm looking for whether or not I'm thinking correct on the general process. Then too, for any recommended tips that will help. I have to order all the parts so I have a few days before I start the work (most likely this weekend if I'm lucky). Because I'm an auto novice, can anyone recommend a proper gasket sealant product (or do you use only the gasket w/o sealant)?
While I'm at it and for those living in hot environments (heck, nearly all lower USA states are hotter than England), any recommendations for best cooling. This Mini may become my daily driver for a while, therefore if I need to replace the radiator for a larger one (if possible), what is recommended?
Many thanks in advance,
Nice repair order you have planned.
Timing cover gasket + front crank seal are the two main replacement parts needed.
Good gasket maker /sealer too = I use Ultra Black, by Permatex
Upon re assembly = make sure the cover bolt holes are all flat ( over time and over torque will distort the holes around the cover.)
When re assembling = Install the Cover + Gasket + crank seal AND the crank pulley in place all together before bolting anything down tight
The Cover needs to Center up on the crank pulley to prevent the seal to be off center and let it leak.
Install all bolts before tightening anything down. = Once everything is started = i use a 'cross pattern' to tighten down. Gorilla tight is not required Just snug.
I also let it sit 24 hours before running to let the sealer dry + setup.
Goodluck!
Thanks Jedduh, I'm not up to speed with terminology, what exactly is the front crank seal ? Would this be a seal for what I called the backing plate (plate between cover and engine block)? I do appreciate the tips, thank you.
The crank seal is different from the cover seal(s). It is a ring-seal in the cover where the end of the crank for the pulley come through the cover.
The other thing to be careful of: the bolts that hold the cover to the back plate are two different lengths. If you get one of the longer ones in the spot you circled in your picture, it can push the back plate out from the block a tiny bit which is just enough to cause a leak.
Ah.... that makes sense, thank you Mplayle, I'm going now to look for all the items I now believe ineed
Looking up parts on my lunch break helped me to determine real quick that I will need to remove all the items before I place my part order. There are simply too many parts that I don't know the names of nor do I realize I will need. Then too, there are multiple P/Ns for the same item (i.e. timing cover). This may not be a normal problem, but since I'm not even sure of the year of my Mini, I cannot be sure which part to order. While at it, I'm going to replace the belts and possibly all components on that side of the engine (backing plate, cover, fan w/ all components). Depending on the shape of the radiator, I may replace it too.. dang it all, the first repair is growing
We call that 'project creep'.....
Going ahead and doing the 'water pump" while in there is smart.
along with the Waterpump Bypass hose.
And you said radiator == people here highly reccomend the Aluminum ones on Ebay ... Cheap + pretty much guranteed better cooling + you're in texas... need all the cooling you can get!.
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2380057.m570.l1313.TR5.TRC0.A0.H0.Xaustin+mini+radiator.TRS0&_nkw=austin+mini+radiator&_sacat=0 (https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2380057.m570.l1313.TR5.TRC0.A0.H0.Xaustin+mini+radiator.TRS0&_nkw=austin+mini+radiator&_sacat=0)
Motor mount too while the mount is 'out'
Grease your speedo cable too while you can access the end of it down in there.
Brake hoses? also EASY to access while the radiator is out== The rubber hose from the subframe to the Caliper
Oh yes== THe list grows and grows!
@Jedduh, Uhmmm.. thank you!?! For the link and project creeping my first repair.
Of the ebay radiators, which is recommended? Worley, AMG, Autiray, etc?
Thanks again
I think the last few I bought were worley 50mm.
I looked at several of the ads and got confused as well. Dan provided a link (in my Moke thread) and it was for one of the Worley 50mm ones.
Part of what confused me was that different "brand" sellers had the exact same ad content - text, font,etc. - with just some minor differences in picture presentation. A little research was indicating they were different postings that led back to the same originating warehouse/supplier.
Mine mini is leaking from the same area, so I'm looking forward to hearing how this repair goes - especially since the engine is still sitting in the car.
Quote from: MPlayle on April 23, 2018, 07:01:46 PM
I looked at several of the ads and got confused as well. Dan provided a link (in my Moke thread) and it was for one of the Worley 50mm ones.
Part of what confused me was that different "brand" sellers had the exact same ad content - text, font,etc. - with just some minor differences in picture presentation. A little research was indicating they were different postings that led back to the same originating warehouse/supplier.
My exact confusion... I will try to find a 52mm one (50mm at the least). If you guys recommend these, then I'm on it.... thanks all
50mm is the core size, which is significantly larger in capacity than stock. Also anything bigger will struggle to fit against the inner wing lip, as this one is tight as it gets.
Thanks Dan. I will go this route. What size are the stock radiators (45mm)?
45mm but I think some as thin as 42mm.
Quote from: 94touring on April 24, 2018, 07:06:36 AM
45mm but I think some as thin as 42mm.
Thanks Dan, If these radiators are only 10" x 10" x 1.9", then the 50mm would have approx 210 cubic inches of coolant which is 20 more than a 45mm radiator. Seems like a small amount to keep an engine cool on hot days. I will go for the 50mm core. I took a radiator out of my now shell, but when removing, I did not pay close attention to the tight fit. I guess I'll find out on this repair/replacement
This is the width of the top tank section.
Also dug up info from my thread to read.
http://www.restorationmini.com/forum/index.php?topic=747.25
"Putting in this radiator. Just did a volume comparison between the stock rad and the new one. 36oz compared to 66oz. Nearly double!"
Thanks Dan.. learning my way here which typically mean one question answered leads to 2-3 others.
First, you modified the radiator fan combo "... I did a little modifying to fit the fan. It was about a half inch too thick on the front. Rather than slide the fan back I cut a few grates and pulled the metal back the small amount I needed. I also cut out a section of the lower rad on the front to give direct entry air to the radiator. The thermoswitch keeps leaking on me hence the atv everywhere. "
While I'm eager to learn, I'm not sure I have the skillset to start modifying a radiator, etc.. with the many radiators that you have now installed, is this the norm (modifying the radiator)?
without having driving mini history, I have been leaning towards a belt driven fan whereas you have installed an electronic fan. My thought process was that I would not want a relay or fuse to go out and the fan stop working. If a belt blows, I think I would know it. Does the electronic fan offer better cooling or what are the pros/cons for electronic vs belt driven?
Usually, the electric fan is/was added as a supplemental fan to go along with the primary belt-driven fan on the water pump. The electric fans tend to be installed in the fender - on the outside of the slats of the inner fender.
In stop-n-go traffic, the belt-driven fan and water pump spend more time at idle rpms and so push less air through the radiator. The electric fan comes on to draw a greater volume of air through than the belt-driven fan at idle rpms.
At higher speeds, the water pump's flow and belt-driven fan air volume is sufficient such that the temp sensor for the electric fan shuts it off.
Mine can barely get up to the low temp mark on the gauge on a cold day, on a hot day running hard on the highway it only gets to normal on the gauge, so I doubt an electric will be needed....it gets plenty hot here in Kansas too!
Wow, thanks for the excellent explanation!!! Info like this helps me to better understand. Since I have a restoration in work, I'll opt for the non electric to see how well it works during summer months. I greatly appreciate you gents.
I tried to do without the mechanical fan and electric fan only with no luck. The electric fan would kick on once in awhile in the dead of summer in stop and go traffic, on an engine running on 3 cylinders. So the electric fan is now gone.
I use a 4-blade fan on the water pump and have a switch-activated electric fan mounted to the radiator to help it out when necessary. I chose to avoid the in-hose thermostatic switch - one less thing to leak or break.
In stop-and-go traffic, though, turning the heater on does a slightly better job of bringing the temperature down than the electric fan does.
Yes but you have a std radiator, if you had one of the Chinese aluminum radiators you might find you don't need the fan - I sure don't and 95-105* summer temps with high humidity are the norm here.
That's one of them-thar MiniSpares 'Super-Cool' radiators... And you're right - it's probably a bit cooler here during the summer months.
I had the same one in Buzz, it did not keep up on hot days - but - it may have been the water pump pulley. since I did it all at once I can't say for sure which item really did the trick.
All I know is that the aluminum rads really work here in the hot part of the country.
Ok... finally getting 'round' to replacing the radiator and fixing the oil leak. Had a friend visit from the UK and we spent three days working out all the issues related to oil leak and radiator replacement. It took that amount of time only because he was educating me along the way (I'm totally a novice at all things automotive). I believe I've experience my first English classic full on maintenance where finding everything wrong is Par for Course. Being totally prepared to replace the radiator with all parts and hardware on hand (well almost), here's a log of how it all went down. I may have a few things out of sequence and/or missing things, but please remember I'm new at this and doing my best to learn...
- pulling alternator and radiator was a bit of a challenge, but not bad
- In removing the fan and timing chain cover, we found the following from whomever did work on this last;
- the two screws just below the crank shaft were totally missing
- the timing chain cover had 3 gaskets in addition to loads of sealant that had oozed out on all sides (very crappy job)
- there was no gasket between timing chain backing plate and engine block
- wrong length screws were used
- after placing a straight edge center to center between crank shaft (lower) & cam shaft (upper), the timing chain itself was 1-2 teeth off.
- In order to access/remove the large bolt on the end of the crank shaft, we had to remove the engine mount so we supported the engine with a jack stand. Impact tools are 'the bomb' when trying to get bolts off like this one... By the way, if you remove the wheel, access to many bolts are much easier through the inner wing.
- My friend brought me over a new backing plate because we were worried the existing one was bent. Cleaned up backing plate, timing chain cover and applied one gasket with a thin layer of Hydromar sealant (what the Mini factories used - OEM sealant)
- corrected the timing Chain alignment and reinstalled with tensioner and all new hardware (by the way, used either ¼" or 5/16" fine thread hardware on just about everything). I'm totally in love with ACE hardware because they have it all when it comes to automotive hardware.
- Reinstalled the timing chain cover with all correct and new hardware.
- Cleaned up the spacer and 'bell housing' for the radiator fan.
- According to the Mini Spares website, I purchased the metal 6 blade fan that is suppose to provide better airflow/cooling for hot climates. Therefore I replaced the existing fan with the new metal fan.
- When attempting to install the new larger radiator, it would not fit with the new fan. Therefore had to remove the new and install the old fan.
- Reinstalled engine mount and engine attachment.
- Compared radiators between new, existing and radiator out of my other mini.
- Installed the new hose to the bottom of the radiator before dropping the radiator in place.
- Also installed fan shroud to radiator before dropping the radiator into place.
- the new 2 row 50 mm radiator (26 columns) dropped in fairly easy (I was surprised). Did a check fit as I expected modifications would be needed to shell. No modifications required. The radiator did sit higher, but the bonnet accepted it w/o fouling. Ah.. not exactly true. The only modification that was required was the support bracket from top of fan shroud to thermostat housing. It works, but I will replace it with a new "cleaner" bracket.
- Cut out the inner thermostat mechanism thereby rendering the thermostat non-functioning. We left a simple orifice for constant coolant flow (all instruction are on the Mini Spares website). I purchase two new thermostats, but will keep them for the other Minis (if needed).
- Reinstalled thermostat housing and reconnected hoses (all new hoses including new cap for thermostat.
- Even though I purchased a new alternator, I decided to use the existing one because there was nothing wrong with it. When reinstalling the alternator, I found that the adjustment bracket on the bottom side was all 'knackered' up. Either it's the wrong alternator or the wrong bracket (long story there), but holes were drilled in the bracket to keep the alternator from slipping down/up. That is the one bracket that I did not have so I had no choice, but to reuse it. I will replace that on my next Mini Spares order.
- Got everything reinstalled with a satisfaction of job complete. Then on attempt to run/test, the engine would not start. Turned out that we plugged a vent hose from the carburetor that was preventing the proper mixture I guess (?). Once I removed the plug we added, the car started up right away.
- However the engine sounded HORRIBLE with explosions behind the carburetor.
- Long story short, we believe that since whomever installed the timing chain out of sync, they adjusted the distributor to account for the rough running engine. Therefore we adjusted the distributor back to what it should have been and the engine rev'd up nicely with no carburetor explosions.
- Took the car for a short test drive and watched the temp gauge.. all seems to be running smoothly and zero leaks (oil or other).
With the experience I have also learned that:
- This particular 1275 engine was an SPi once upon a timet hat has been converted back to a carburetor system. Therefore there are loads of unconnected wires, cut and plugged hoses – simply confusing for a novice to be sure.
- Course threads are typically used more in aluminum material whereas fine threads are typically used in cast iron or steel. With that said however, the engine block (case iron) uses both course and fine thread. Therefore awareness to look for this can save headache down the road.
On to other Mini issues, but this was a first good run with quite a few issues to resolve...
On most Minis the lower adjuster bracket for the alternator is on the other way, the slide portion goes on the engine stud, the single hole bolts to the alternator. Spi engines could be different......but you might see if it will go the other way. There should be a pillar support on the engine end which you are missing and the bracket attaches on the front (radiator side) of the alternator.
Edit: Minispares says they're all the same up to and including Spi - you need this.....
http://www.minispares.com/product/Classic/Engine/Block/Studs_bolts/12G289.aspx?100112&ReturnUrl=/search/classic/alternator.aspx|Back%20to%20search (http://www.minispares.com/product/Classic/Engine/Block/Studs_bolts/12G289.aspx?100112&ReturnUrl=/search/classic/alternator.aspx%7CBack%20to%20search)
Good that you found the missing screws, if you ever do a double row timing chain you have to chamfer the holes and use a tapered head screw or they'll foul the crank gear.
I plugged the same port on my carburetor with same result. I believe it is the fuel overflow/bypass port, so run a piece of hose down away from the exhaust off that port.
Wow Randy. You did a lot. 77.gif Must be satisfying to make that progress.
Thanks all.. @Bruce, it is satisfying and after a day or so now, not a drop of oil or leak. @Dave.. I do appreciate the knowledge. I took pictures of every part before and during disassembly to be sure to put it back "right". Whomever touched this car last apparently didn't know classic minis and/or was racing against the clock. @..holio.. I actually cut the hose to make it shorter, but now I may replace it with something longer. Will be heading up to Route 66 for the sole purpose of driving the Mini on the historic route....
Randy, that's the same lesson I tried to teach my students when they'd use YouTube vids to figure out how to do something on their cars - what if the guy doing the video is doing it wrong - how would you know?
In their case I was trying to teach them to go to the "right" sources, such as owners manuals, factory workshop manuals or even factory parts books.....they always wanted to take the short cut.
In your case since you've never seen these parts before, you can be excused for not knowing how they're supposed to look. 77.gif
Yep, my learning is usually a combination of the two. Read the shop manual if the pics and statements aren't making sense then I you tube it for visual clarification. Sometimes though you just have to jump in and try.